The INVICTA FIDEM - Dreadnought Rules help.

[Lord Borak]

Evening chaps. I was just wondering if you could cast your experienced eyes over the rules I came up with for my Dreadnought - THE INVICTA FIDEM. I've used the Smotherman formula for the points but do say if you think it's under costed or over costed. 750pts for the Invicta worked out about right (it was less but I added the targettng matrix.).

This is obviously designed for friendly play (and BIG games).




Dreadnoughts may be included in any fleet lists as reserves counting as Battleships for reserve purposes. (meaning you'd need 3 battleships to field a Dreadnought!)

Dreadnought special rules:
Dreadnoughts follow all the rules for movement as Battleships with the following exceptions.

Due to the Dreadnoughts vast bulk they are very hard to slow down and stop.
- Dreadnoughts are not slowed down by being in contact with blast markers.
- Dreadnoughts are not allowed to use the Burn Retro's special rules.

Plasma Lance:
Due to the huge amounts of energy required to fire the Plasma Lance all weapons on the Invicta Fidem  are at half range in the turn the Plasma Lance fires. Shots from the Plasma Lance always hit on a 4+ and receive a +1 modifier on rolls to cause Critical hits

Targeting Matrix.
The Invicta Fidem comes equipped with a Targeting Matrix.

[BaronIveagh]

Wow what a Necro I know, but since no one ever replied to his question: I'd allow burn retros to keep it from going off the table.  Beyond that, looks ok.

[Zelnik]

Beautiful miniature, though the points requirements for this vessel are so vast that even the largest battles I have witnessed would never allow it to ever be played, and I have played battles upwards of 5000 points and higher.


This is, essentially, a super-ship and it pushes the meta, and in my opinion, too far.

I am going to say that your points are pretty accurate, given the durability and firepower of the ship.


I would balance it this way: If you take this vessel, you cannot take any battle cruisers, grand cruisers, battleships or defenses with more then six hits total.

[kerros]

Beautiful miniature, though the points requirements for this vessel are so vast that even the largest battles I have witnessed would never allow it to ever be played, and I have played battles upwards of 5000 points and higher.


This is, essentially, a super-ship and it pushes the meta, and in my opinion, too far.

I am going to say that your points are pretty accurate, given the durability and firepower of the ship.

I would balance it this way: If you take this vessel, you cannot take any battle cruisers, grand cruisers, battleships or defenses with more then six hits total.

I like your idea about not being able to include anything bigger than a cruiser if you field the Invicta. I will push back on your point about the practicality of using it. I've always understood the requirement of a certain number of smaller capital ships being needed to field a larger vessel (i.e two cruisers for every one battlecruiser) for the purposes of the game, but in reality fleets in naval history have often broken up into smaller detachments for various purposes. In World War II for example, it wasn't uncommon for a battleship, a frigate and a destroyer to go patrol a section of the ocean not far (relative term. still hundreds of nauts) from an active war zone. I've always liked this as an added element of BFG. Why can't a patrol consisting of an Emperor, a Dauntless and two Firestorms come across an Eldar fleet of equal value? The Bismark was dispatched with a heavy cruiser as an escort (the Prinz Eugen) and while it was methodically hunted down by the British before it could do any real damage to the US-UK supply line (RIP HMS Hood), the German Admiralty intended it and it's lone escort to raid the North Atlantic. All this to say, I think a 1500 point battle, or something like that, with the Invicta Fidem as the centerpiece an Imperial flotilla would be fun.

[Zelnik]

Beautiful miniature, though the points requirements for this vessel are so vast that even the largest battles I have witnessed would never allow it to ever be played, and I have played battles upwards of 5000 points and higher.


This is, essentially, a super-ship and it pushes the meta, and in my opinion, too far.

I am going to say that your points are pretty accurate, given the durability and firepower of the ship.

I would balance it this way: If you take this vessel, you cannot take any battle cruisers, grand cruisers, battleships or defenses with more then six hits total.

I like your idea about not being able to include anything bigger than a cruiser if you field the Invicta. I will push back on your point about the practicality of using it. I've always understood the requirement of a certain number of smaller capital ships being needed to field a larger vessel (i.e two cruisers for every one battlecruiser) for the purposes of the game, but in reality fleets in naval history have often broken up into smaller detachments for various purposes. In World War II for example, it wasn't uncommon for a battleship, a frigate and a destroyer to go patrol a section of the ocean not far (relative term. still hundreds of nauts) from an active war zone. I've always liked this as an added element of BFG. Why can't a patrol consisting of an Emperor, a Dauntless and two Firestorms come across an Eldar fleet of equal value? The Bismark was dispatched with a heavy cruiser as an escort (the Prinz Eugen) and while it was methodically hunted down by the British before it could do any real damage to the US-UK supply line (RIP HMS Hood), the German Admiralty intended it and it's lone escort to raid the North Atlantic. All this to say, I think a 1500 point battle, or something like that, with the Invicta Fidem as the centerpiece an Imperial flotilla would be fun.

There is a reason why I considered myself the biggest wet blanket of the High Admiralty 


So I will start by saying I agree with your historical references 100%, however, I don't agree with them applied to the context of the game.

What you effectively have here is two battleships sandwiched on top of one another, and is an entirely new class of ship in both size and scale, and fails the 'inverse firepower' rule that BFG applies to bigger ships. Allow me to explain.

All fleets with a few exceptions, follow a simple rule: As their hit points go up, their firepower goes down. This is why a squadron of six escorts can out-fire battleships and cost roughly the same but sacrifices durability to an extreme, and why the humble cruiser in squadrons are usually the strongest force in the game (which is how the game was designed). This ship has too much firepower to follow the standard rules, though the intense point cost and fielding restrictions do compensate for that.  This thing could feasibly take on the single most powerful vessels in the game (space hulk or Ramilies Star fort) by itself and win without issue.



If you wanted your original fielding option (three battleships per dreadnaught) there is no functional way you could afford it in 1500 points. Given that your cheapest cruiser is the endeavor, you would need nine of them, three battleships...simply not possible by the current rules of the game. Even if you change it to "this ship can be taken as a flagship of 1500 points or more" would potentially overbalance the game.

If you wanted rules to field this, given the established meta, it would require an LD10 commander (increasing the points effectively by 100 points), and be only allowed in a fleet of at least 3000 points.

[horizon]

Actually I often used Kerros approach in designing scenarios. In the Oberon description it is mentioned that it often was used as solitAiry deep space patrol. Cheer fun to explore.

It just happens to be with whom you are going to play. Zelnik is right when approaching all with a balanced overall factor in mind. Very important ofcourse. On the other side if your group likes themed games just go wild with scenarios and setups.

Their is an old Bismarck themed scenario. Using only a Battleship, fast battleship, grand cruiser and light cruiser iirc. I have a battle report on this forum, somewhere.

[kerros]

I wholeheartedly agree with Zelnick about the competitive balance that  must be struck when fielding a fleet. There is a point where a ridiculously expensive ship, even all by itself, cannot be beaten by any combination of other ships of equal points value. Anybody think they could take on the Invicta Fidem with 750 points of other ships? Maybe a fleet built around a Planet Killer, and even then that would only be the PK and one or two other ships. So I see Zelnick's point..."officially". For the purposes of a campaign or a tournament you would want to stick to the rules about tonnage and Invicta Fidem would need some very specific ones like the ones that have been suggested in this thread. That being said, if people want to explore some Bismark-like scenarios just to see how it goes go for it!A friend of mine made up stats for a Star Trek Enterprise D ship (scaled up to the size of a BFG battleship - I believe it was in the 900 pt range) and I took it on all by itself. Lot of fun.

[horizon]

A fleet of eldar nightshades could hurt this ship, especially if the first attack run hits home effectively.


As for the Enterprise D: I made rules for the old micromachines small model. In size the D is a lot smaller then Gothic ships but I gave Picard the diplomacy option: On a leadership roll with heavy positive modifiers no ship would attack the Enterprise

[Thinking Stone]

From a game design point of view, I think it’s safe to say that the Invicta Fidem simply wouldn’t fit with BFG well as a general, balanced fleet inclusion (as @Zelnik puts so well!). I wonder if just considering the Invicta Fidem as a scenario ship would be more of a useful place to meaningfully consider its balance/stats? (The Planet Killer and Activated Blackstones I gather were originally thought of like that)

For example, let’s say we have a fictional version of the (fictional) 40K universe where some crazy Archmagos actually built one of these things (e.g. a servitor bumped the STC when it was transferring data and it accidentally doubled the height of the ship) and it worked. How would such a ship function?

In terms of theme, a giant double-battleship doesn’t seem too out of place as an Imperial equivalent of other mega-space weapons (though I do think its stats are a bit powerful, and not quite fitting Imperial technology). It isn’t completely out of the league of the Ramiles or Hulks, is it?

If I were attempting to create stats for such a ship that fit with the background, these might be some of my changes:
* I think the Retros restrictions are a bit in the wrong direction. It would seem more fitting to me to have a Speed of 10 cm (and needing Burn Retros to turn at all). We know Imperials are bad at engines on big ships.
* I think the dorsal lance strength is fair given the extra length of the ship (and extra turrets). 60 cm is in keeping with other dorsal lance arrays.
* The side weapons batteries are a pretty fair representation of six battery segments, I think—the longer range explains why they’re not much stronger than the revised Retribution with FP18, 45 cm range.
* Other mega ships like Hulks, Ramilieses and the Planet Killer have less shields: I think this should, too. I’m not sure if 4 is sufficient, or if the size makes 5 appropriate (I’m leaning towards 4).
* The turret rating could be justified as 4 given the extra surface area to cover (and the attack craft help with defence)
* It does have torpedo tubes, but it also looks a bit like it has prow guns. I think it would be fair and appropriate to convert the prow torpedoes to weapons batteries or even to make it all part of the plasma lance
* The plasma lance is an interesting special weapon, but I suspect the strength is possibly too high (and I think a nova cannon, the other obvious option, would be inappropriate too). Perhaps a Bombardment cannon battery rather than a Lance battery? The short range also conflicts a bit with the long broadside battery ranges, but I think the idea is interesting, and comes with a useful caveat (though maybe that could be converted to a Reload Ordnance, and restricted by Special Orders?).
* The launch bays I think are a fair representation, given their large size.
* The broadside lances, however, I think are too powerful for what the model has: they look just like a Str 2, 30 cm lance after all. Should they be any more powerful, according to the background?
* I don’t think the Targeting Matrix is necessary, and might not fit the general Imperial distrust of technology (it’s not the Adeptus Mechanicus, after all!).
* Is 16 hits fair, given the supposed size of the PK? Since that’s 14, I could imagine this one being 14 too (though I’m not sure if that’s necessary here).

So, in summary, I’d be suggesting:
Type: Battleship/16
Speed: 10 cm. Requires Burn Retros to turn, cannot use Come to a New Heading.
Turns: 45°
Shields: 4
Armour: 5+/6+ prow.
Turrets: 4
Weapons:
* Dorsal lances: S4, 60 cm, L/F/R
* Prow plasma lance: S6, 15 cm, Front. Lance, +1 to critical hits. Requires Reload Ordnance orders to fire again. Cannot fire if on special orders.
* Starboard WB: FP20, 60 cm, R.
* Starboard lance: S2, 30 cm, R.
* Starboard launch bays: S3.
* Port WB: FP20, 60 cm, L.
* Port lance: S2, 30 cm, L.
* Port launch bays: S3.

As for points, I suspect more learnèd people than me can better decide those based on these stats!

I think the general rules for taking a Dreadnought should probably be thrown, and it should be just a unique/scenario ship like the Planet Killer. Also, its name might be more appropriately Santisima Trinidad (or a Latinised version)….

PS: Interesting ideas for the Enterprise D, @Horizon! And a generally interesting idea for a diplomatically-connected ship (e.g. a Rogue Trader), though I suspect Imperial fleets would probably be more confused than anything

[Zelnik]

i think it will be a good idea to consider making specific rules for "Dreadnought" level vessels.

now strictly speaking, I don't like the idea of adding a new class to the game so flippantly, why would this not qualify as a defense given it's size, or a battleship for the sake of movement rules?  I think we all remember what happened to the forgeworld attempts to make things too big for their own good.


the first question one should ask is: What makes a dreadnought? Is it the next step up from battleship? Is that even needed for the sake of the game (and does it even work within the 40k meta?)


Now, over on shapeways, a guy by the name of Tempest_512 has made "glorious battleships" which very much resemble what would make a Dreadnought on size and scale. check out his store here https://www.shapeways.com/shops/chrisships


So I would like to have you all consider:

1. Do we need a new class of ship?

2. Will it marginalize the position of older classes of ship?

3. What would be needed to balance it with the established rules of the game?

4.If it is made, how do we make it available to players with any sort of standardized rules or miniatures?

[Lotus]

So I would like to have you all consider:

1. Do we need a new class of ship?

2. Will it marginalize the position of older classes of ship?

3. What would be needed to balance it with the established rules of the game?

4.If it is made, how do we make it available to players with any sort of standardized rules or miniatures?

1. I don't think so. Dreadnought should be a very rare sight, even more rare than Battleships. Scenario-driven or campaign-driven.

2. There can't be a general answer for this question, it would compete with the Battleship-class, if it would marginalize it would depend on the cost/use ratio.

3. Maybe some kind of extra requirements to limit them to large fleet engagements. Something like "one for three Battleships" for example.

4. Just create a .pdf, sent it to Horizon and i am sure he will put it in the "unofficial" section.

I've used the Smotherman formula for the points but do say if you think it's under costed or over costed. 750pts for the Invicta worked out about right (it was less but I added the targettng matrix.).


The Invicta Fidem comes equipped with a Targeting Matrix.

The smotherman formula is inacurate in some cases (for imperials it seems to work fine) - the author has not thought about the posibility to have multipliers in the formula. For example: He wrote that eldar holofield have a point cost that doesn't take the actual hitpoints of the vessel into account, which doesn't make sense since they are basically a modifier for these hitpoints and not extra hitpoints like imperial shields. Treating them as a modifier gives you way more accurate results when creating eldar ships. But one very interesting thing he did discover was that some ships which have more weaponry than the class should carry if compared with other ships of the same class, ist that these ships pay some kind of extra tax.

So, you could use the formula, apply some kind of tax for having more hp and weaponry than a regular Battleship, and after that you have to take into account that the cost for the matrix are dependant on the mass of weapon batteries.


Pointwise i would go for 785, so 750 should work fine.

[Zelnik]

Hey Lotus!


One of the biggest issues in creating a vessel class beyond battleship is that, even in the lore, there appears to be an upper limit on size of vessel in this genre. There are a tiny number of vessels in the lore that go beyond the size of your standard battleship. These VERY small number of ships are things like Space Hulks, the Phalanx, and the World Engine.

All of these ships are so large that they land soundly in the "Defense" category.

I am going to come out and say we should use the "Defense" category because it is more then just a "defense" it's a target that is either so huge that it is easy to hit even in a void conflict, so slow it cannot effectively maneuver, or is such a sensor eyesore that augers could track it with one hand on the divining rod.

Ships like the Inicta Fidem falls into the classification of defense because of A. It's friggin huge, B. It can't maneuver with any sort of grace and C. It's a huge eyesore on the battlefield.

This is a defense. Yes, it makes it easier to shoot, but at that scale, it deserves no less.

[Lotus]

Hey Lotus!


One of the biggest issues in creating a vessel class beyond battleship is that, even in the lore, there appears to be an upper limit on size of vessel in this genre. There are a tiny number of vessels in the lore that go beyond the size of your standard battleship. These VERY small number of ships are things like Space Hulks, the Phalanx, and the World Engine.

All of these ships are so large that they land soundly in the "Defense" category.

[...]

100% this.

And maybe the Dreadnoght could use some movement rules with the "Defense-Aspekt" in mind. Something like...."can only turn once (45°) when on "come to new heading" + "can't turn without "come to new heading"", somewhat similar to Hulks which need a special order to change their movement direction.

Somewhat special, but more in line with similar large vessels, and easy to use.

[Thinking Stone]

One benefit of moving like defences/hulks is that those rules make minuscule movement allowances actually useful!

Though I reckon that this ship works well with the normal rules for movement if it has 10 cm movement. Unlike hulks or other defences, it only has engines pointing in one direction, so it seems natural to me that it uses the normal move rules. To change direction, it still has to use Burn Retros, since 10 cm isn’t enough to get one turn! It can still be classified as a Defence for targeting purposes, of course.

[Lotus]

To change direction, it still has to use Burn Retros, since 10 cm isn’t enough to get one turn! It can still be classified as a Defence for targeting purposes, of course.

Good point.