[AL]Wood Elves

[Dark Omen]

So I played another 2000 pt game against Steve last night. I took Chaos, he was Wood Elves.

He actually took an illegal list but we only realised afterwards.

He had a General, Wizard, Hero on Hawk, 4 Archers, 2 Waywatchers, 4 Spears, 2 Wardancers, 6 Wild Riders (illegal), 2 Warhawks and a Treeman monster.

I took a General, Hero on Dragon with Sword of Might, 2 Wizards, one with Dispel Scroll, one with Ring of Magic, 2 Chaos Warriors with magic swords, 5 Marauders, 2 Ogres, 4 Hounds, 4 Chariots, 2 Harpies.   

The battlefield has heavy woods on the flanks and a built up area in the centre.

Chaos actually beat Wood Elves on Scouting and forced them to set up first.

Wood Elves took first turn. Flanks were cavalry, centre infantry.

Chaos redeployed to offer a refused flank, putting all cavalry on the left and holding the centre with Infantry in terrain.
Some good orders got Chaos Chariots and hounds into Wild Rider brigade on the left flank and destroyed them.

Wood Elf counter attack caused some damage but was then overwhelmed by Chaos second Chariot brigade which removed the remaining Wood Elf Cavalry, at which point Steve had had enough.

Victory to Chaos on Turn 4.

So we both have yet to find a winning combination with the new list.

We both feel that new Wood Elves lack a decent force multiplier in the form of a Flying, Terror causing character, their spells are underwhelming, they have no chaff units and no resilience so lose points very quickly. It appears that the only way to win with Wood Elves is indeed to forest camp, which is a tactic we both refuse to employ.

Steve is in the process of coming up with an alternate symbiotic list composed equally of Forest spirits and Elves.  The Spirits provide close combat punch, chaff and resilience. The Elves provide shooting and mobility. The concept is that you choose one of two types of General, Treeman or Elf Lord, who suffers command penalties against units not of his type, and the two types of unit cannot brigade or intermingle characters. It requires a lot of work but will be fun to test out.

We also consider that the Tree Singing and Fury of the Forest spells could be merged into one spell that both moves woods and causes damage to enemy caught in them. This then frees up a spell slot for something useful like a Mirage type spell.

Happy Playtesting!
 

[toadie]

Please consider bringing back the Forest Dragon into the next version of the WE army list so it can be playtested, rather than just simply removing it.

About the whole free wood thing, could instead one of the WE spells create a wood which would remain in play and casting wizard cannot cast it again?  It would mean to get a 'free' wood, WE would have to take a wizard, wizard has to successfully cast the spell without it being dispelled, it would use up a spell, etc?

[Dark Omen]

Here is the first draft of an alternative list I have been working on with my regular opponent.

The list divides the units into Elves and Forest spirits, with minimums that must be taken from each type. Elven characters suffer a penalty when commanding forest spirits. Units and characters of different types cannot intermingle.

You must choose between a high command Elf General or a lower command Treeman general, whichever you choose you have to take some units of the opposite type.

The list allows the purchase of woods out of the army points allowance instead of getting free woods.

The Elven units provide shooting and mobility, the Tree Spirit units provide chaff, close combat punch and resilience. Wild Riders are classed as Forest spirits in this list.

The Elven general is available at a reduced (Dark Elf)  cost as he will suffer a penalty to command forest spirits, which you must take.
The Waywatchers provide a threat to heavy armour due to their special deployment rule.
The Forest Dragon mount allows Elves to provide a force multiplier for combat.
Wardancers allow the elves to create moderately powerful close combat blocks when combined with Eternal Guard, but are intentionally limited in number.

The Treeman General provides a cheaper command option, the Branchwraith a hero option to get around the -1 to command for Elves. Forest spirits are able to hold the line and dish out damage without having to hide in the woods.

The list concept is that the army can compete in close combat and at range without being too powerful.

The points values incorporate the racial rule of no -1 to command in woods and also the -1 to command forest spirits by Elves.

I hope some of the concepts provide room for discussion!

Thanks

Iain

[Ole]

great work. i really like the concept.

I still like to make some points about it.

- I guess you priced the Spell for the Treeman Ancient and the Branchwraith with 5 points extra?
- it is quite common if a unit that „must always use initiative to charge“  must always advance as well.
- The two shooting attacks the way watchers have is breaking a taboo. At least for me, because that way shooting can do more harm than original intended.

[honestmistake]

Several points stand out for me...
* Waywatchers are far too good. 95 points and thet get 2 shooting attacks with a -1 armour AND a +1 to hit AND no order penalty for woods AND are back to being a 3 stand unit AND get sneaky Ninja deployment behind enemy lines at a critical moment???
* Wardancers are basically Empire Skirmishes but with better armour (possibly) and the ability to move about once combat starts... I see they are 5 points more than skirmishers but I would seriously drop that rearange stands part. To fiddly in combat and not really justified. Other than that niggle I really like them, much improved over the original.
* Warhawks are flying monsters with a shooting attack. Again they pay a few extra points but I think classifying them as Flying Cavalry so they lose the monster charge bonus might be more balanced?
* Treekin are Ogres with an availability of 2 per 1000pts?  Should this be dropped to 1 per 1000 pts?
*The Treeman Monster is basically a Bone Giant who doesn't always get the command penalty and can enter woods.... this also seems a little more powerful than needed.

Overall I would say this seems like an improvement but I still think it's putting flavour before balance. Am very concerned that it basically Cherry Picks from other lists gives the troops a quick rebranding (and a few extra abilities) but doesn't really take into account why no other army gets such a range of powerful troops without some sort of sacrifice :/

[Dark Omen]

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment on the list.

@Ole - Yes, I added 5 pts to the characters who have the Tree singing spell.

The Wild Riders follow the same rules as Bretonnian Knights - they have to charge but don't have to pursue. Also Ogres have to charge humans but don't have to pursue, so there is some precedent.

@ Ole and honest mistake
The Waywatchers were not effective as a one stand unit in my experience. They also need to be a three stand unit to justify the +3 Scouting value they provide. Their role is that of artillery in the army - they can be deployed close to the enemy and provide armour piercing shots. This fills a hole in the Wood Elf list which otherwise has a hard time coping with heavy cavalry / infantry. I can see the argument to dropping them back down to one shooting attack and three combat attacks for no reduction in cost but I have yet to properly playtest them to see if they are too good.

@honest mistake
Wardancers - a 5 pt increase on Empire Skirmishers seems about right for a one stand unit that can get 5+ armour. The swapping stands in combat is just to reflect their ability to interpenetrate other units and seemed quite thematic but is not essential so can be dropped.

Warhawks are identical to Terradon Riders.

Lists that have Ogres (Chaos, Orcs, Ogres,)  generally also have other Heavy Infantry, such as Trolls, Ironguts, Chaos warriors. I don't think a 2 unit cap is that high.

-Treeman is identical to the other list but with an added 10 pt tax for entering woods.

I agree they look good on paper, but in practice I rarely find they live up to their potential.
The weakness I see in the Wood Elf List is a lack of resilience and lack of punch. I have tried to include units that provide this, but have intentionally limited them. The most effective melee units, Wild Riders and Treekin, are max of 2 per 1000 pts.
There are no long range missile attacks so the Wood Elves suffer against artillery.
Their magic is very limited - only two spells I consider viable at present, being Twilight Host and Call of the Hunt.
It is quite hard to effectively bring a lot of shooting to bear in a game, so ironically the Glade Guard are quite limited in their effectiveness. Wood Elves have excellent archers but archery does not win games.
Compared to High and Dark Elves I think the Wood Elves are still the poor cousins as they lack 4+ armour cavalry which in turn make the Command 10 Generals so effective.

I will continue to playtest until a balance is found. Personally I have no desire to collect Wood Elves but I know lots of people do, so I'll do what I can to provide viable ideas. Having said that I'm not precious about this list so feel free to ignore it if you want!

Iain

[Geep]

I really like Dark Omen's list.
My only issues are:

Waywatchers are probably too good as they are, though I agree that the previous Salamander-like role wasn't right for them. I think a unit of 2 stands wouldn't be terrible- that's 4 shots, so on par with most artillery out there. They simply swap range for Gutter Runner style deployment.

Wardancers moving around during a combat is a little impractical. I think the background justification is fine, but that it doesn't add enough for the inconvenience of model-moving.

I'm not sure about Treemen entering woods- I know that sounds ridiculous, and that they gain no benefit from it, but it's a major overwrite of some core rules. Maybe playtesting would show it to be fine though.

Stating that the Treeman Ancient should cause Terror, but doesn't because he's unlikely to be in combat anyway is... odd. Personally, I'd make him a decent in combat, Terror causing General that is cheaper than the Forest Dragon option. I know combat generals aren't popular, but some people may enjoy the risk. Right now I see little use for him- he gives no extra unit access, he commands Elves and Forest Spirits at Ld9 (vs the Elf general's 10 for Elves and 9 for Spirits)... Being cheaper and casting a spell doesn't seem impressive for an ancient tree-monster.

I hope you continue development of this list, and that it gets considered as the 'official' list (who does decide that?).

[Kealios]

I really like the attention this list is getting. I just moved, and have brought my Warmaster stuff out of storage, so I intend on continuing to assemble the WE's I've already purchased.

Following!

[Aldhick]

Hey guys. It's been a while. Check the lates  0.2.3 version of the Wood Elf list. We will be happy for any feedback from playtesting. Many thanx to Iain and all the others for the input.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10_y9V45CKxkIrQe_ARIKSB6bqIIqHEs5/view

[Geep]

I like this list, but it may be too powerful? Having a Ld10 general backed by two movement spells is pretty damned quick (even if one is only a situational D6cm move). It's also a massive amount of options- more than most lists- though I actually don't mind that at all 

As well as a couple of spelling mistakes, some of the wording could be clearer- The extra wood rule, for example... I can't offer a quick fix on that one, but can try and do a full re-wording if I find time in the coming days. Similarly for tree-singing- you move a forest, leaving enemy units touching the forest in place (mechanically very awkward), but the forest immediately stops if it touches enemy models? I assume this means enemy models not already in contact, but you can never be too clear. I know picking on wording can seem cheap, but Warmaster seems to be have a very strong basis in non-English countries, so these details matter.

[empireaddict]

Have played a couple of WE playtest games recently with Paul Winter.  Will do same again next week.  And lined up to also play Janners' WEs the week after that.  I will then offer some observations based on the experiences.  Also, I ought to declare that I have always considered the 2009 WE list to be rather overpowered and will be using that datum as a way of gauging the 2018 version.

[Dark Omen]

Good, very good. Most of the ideas from my alternate list are here.
Will be play testing this list soon probably against a new Beastman list I am working on.

Might even to a Battle report for you tube on army builds and testing if it goes well.

**Evil cackle**

Dark Omen

[Leonida]

I love the WE, I think I have tested all the army lists produced so far including the new army list 0.2.3 I have had the opportunity to test it we are on the right track. But what I would like to emphasize that I think the WE in the woods should be his kingdom or at least very difficult to oppose it in his environment.

To make a comparison the LIZARD has benefited as much as the WE in the dense soil no maulus in command phase (-1 in the wood etc.). On the other hand, with considerably higher troops. Where is its strength of the WE then? By comparing units between LIZARD AND WE: Kroxigor 5/3/4 Trekin 4/4/5 moreover the base infantry of the LIZARD are 4/3/5. I think it would be now that the WE had AT LEAST a unit that could make a difference on the battlefield.
In the open field the WE are practically popcorn, according to at least one strong infantry unit would make the difference. Bring the TREEKIN to 5/3/4 or at least 5/4/5 and modify the eternal guard in 4/3/5. After many matches with the WE, I can assure you that they lack the thrust.

In addition, spells should be modified. For example the High Elf Spells "HEAVEN'S FIRE" is perfect for WE.

At the moment it is not a competitive army even in a wood. But I'm hopeful for a WE army list that can play not only to draw a game but at least to have a chance to win.

What I want to say is that the LIZARD has the same bonus of WE in the dense terrain, with much higher units, in my opinion should be given something more to the WE to be able to say better the WE in the wood that the LIZARD.

Is my opinion, the shot, a fundamental characteristic of the WE, should be more incremant. I have tested the change made with army list WE 0.2.3 of Waywatchers, their value of melee attack is low would be to bring back to three, then their high cost at 70 pts would be justified too. But I must say that WE army list 0.2.3 meets my favor THANKS and congratulations for the idea.


Leonida

[Geep]

Wood Elves and Lizardmen have basically the same home environment- It seems right that they both have the same rules of easier command in woods. Being defended is already pretty dang good, and even the basic Eternal Guard already have elite infantry stats.
Wood Elves and Lizards also play differently- Wood Elves have more and longer range shooting than lizards, plus Lizards are limited in movement- their best stuff must be within 20cm of a character to receive orders, so although they have more free terrain movement the Wood Elves can use it better. I would not consider the list here weak against Lizardmen.
Falling into the trap of making Wood Elves like Lizardmen+1 leads to a very bad place.

[Leonida]

I agree with the fact that WE and Lizard (I also have a Lizard army 3000 pts, and other Ogres, Nippon, Chaos, Bretonnia ecc.) can not have similar units. But I can guarantee you after years of playing with WE and that there is no unity to push. I know very well the other ARMY LIST game from 2000 to warmaster.
I apologize if I have not been clear but my English is poor, it was my intention to highlight some gaps in an army that I think is one of the most iconic in the world of Warmaster, And I had taken as a reference the LIZARD. I just want a WE army list to be finally achieved by canceling previous lists errors.
SORRY again but I love WARMASTER.


Leonida