[WMR] movement spell query

[empireaddict]

Question that came up at yesterday's tournament.  Now running it at the collective wisdom of the forum: 

Unit with another unit in supporting position; successful movement spell cast on front unit.  Allowed to take the other unit with it as supporting charge?  My feeling was 'yes', because the movement spell wording was that it would move as in a normal move (ie. a charge, which can have a supporting charge).  Thoughts?

[Clawlessdragon]

Sounds correct to me under WMR. But this does seem to be one of the few occasions where WMR has made a spell more powerful. Most other spells are less effective due to the 2 round combat limit.

[Toothpick]

Hi,
What was the movement spell called?

Thanks,
Shane

[Aldhick]

If you are refering to spells such as Voice of command, than the answer is definitely NO. The spell adresses only one unit as described in spell description.

[empireaddict]

Wings of the Jungle: "The spell affects only a single unit, never a brigade.  The unit can be moved just as if it had received an order in the Command phase".

Same wording for Voice of Command, Lady's Favour, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, and Hunting for Gore.

If a unit is ordered to move in the command phase, the following (p44) applies: "a unit is allowed to make a supporting charge if it positioned behind another so that at least one stand could theoretically support in combat.  If the front unit charges, whether on initiative or by means of an order, the second unit can automatically make a supporting charge."

So, the spell(s) allow a normal charge for a unit and, during a normal charge, a unit would bring its supporters with it.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Aldhick]

Alright, than there's the question how to approach this as this was obviously not the original intention of the spell.

[Rowlybot]

I'm guessing this is the conflict of using a WMA rule for movement/charges/supporting charges where there is no magic. Good that it's been caught. Be interesting to see what the committee decide.

[Aldhick]

BTW the exact wording of the Supporting charges is following:

During the Command phase, a unit is allowed to make a
supporting charge if it is positioned behind another so that
at least one stand could theoretically support in combat.

So those spells work just as if it has recieved an order in Command phase but actually not during the Command phase.
 
So it's not as strightforward as it might seem imo. Nevertheless this should be discussed further and made more explicit. Many thanx for your contributions.

[Ole]

BTW the exact wording of the Supporting charges is following:

During the Command phase, a unit is allowed to make a
supporting charge if it is positioned behind another so that
at least one stand could theoretically support in combat.

So those spells work just as if it has recieved an order in Command phase but actually not during the Command phase.
 
So it's not as strightforward as it might seem imo. Nevertheless this should be discussed further and made more explicit. Many thanx for your contributions.

Of course not, the spell is cast in the shooting phase and not in the Command phase. But as the wording is at the moment Jim is absolutely right. I would get some more games being played. Just because it was not possible before, does not necessarily mean it is broken.

[Aquahog]

This is similar to the question on supporting charges to advancing units I think. There is no original intent as it's two separate games. Unless you're referring to original intent in Revolution of course Ales.

Is it unbalanced? No idea, and based on how often it comes up I think it'll be hard to playtest properly. Even if intending to try it, it may not occur every game I mean.

[Toothpick]

Hi,
I'm of the opinion that the spell(s) affect only the charging unit, and not any other unit in a "supporting" position.

My reasons are, (and I'm probably wrong) as has already been stated, the spell(s) in question affects a single unit. Even though the affected unit is now being moved just as if it received an order in the command phase, it is only this unit that is affected. Any other units capable of making a supporting charge are still in the shooting phase, and thus are not affected by the spell. Therefore they cannot move.

Units are separate and distinct, if a spell says its affects only one unit, then it affects only one unit.


Thanks,
Shane

[Lex]

Hi,
I'm of the opinion that the spell(s) affect only the charging unit, and not any other unit in a "supporting" position.

My reasons are, (and I'm probably wrong) as has already been stated, the spell(s) in question affects a single unit. Even though the affected unit is now being moved just as if it received an order in the command phase, it is only this unit that is affected. Any other units capable of making a supporting charge are still in the shooting phase, and thus are not affected by the spell. Therefore they cannot move.

Units are separate and distinct, if a spell says its affects only one unit, then it affects only one unit.


Thanks,
Shane

That would be my take on this too. If you proceed otherwise then this will be a significant change to spellcasting

[greenskinchief]

in my opinion it is just the one unit not the supporting one, but as to the balance more testing would be required, maybe the whole spell system needs a rebalance?

[Rowlybot]

...maybe the whole spell system needs a rebalance?

*cough*Throwing out Teleport for a start... *cough*

But I do see both sides here.

You're casting a spell on one unit - it affects that one unit. However, the rules for movement which then take precedence say that a unit in support can, if you wish, move with the unit they are supporting. Bare in mind, most of the movement spells aren't a 'mass teleport' it has a fluffy 'A booming voice of command', 'the winds blow the unit...' blah blah blah. It's not pick'n'plonk as it is in our own hands.

Like I say, I'm interesting to see where this ends up. Pragmatically I believe that only the unit that is the actual target of the spell should get to move but at the same time, my own justification that it's a move and not a teleport would potentially contradict what I think.

[empireaddict]

I don't really have a strong opinion on whether it should be errata'd out or not.  But the ambiguity does need to be fixed one way or the other.  If you go down the route of not allowing supporters to be dragged, it should be easy enough to say 'this does not apply to units moved by spells' within the supporting charges section.