Badly Hurt rule in continuing combats.

[Dark Omen]

Dear Community,

I would like to make sure I am interpreting a rule correctly ahead of a tournament next weekend.

When a combat engagement is Unresolved after two rounds of combat, and the winner elects to maintain contact by means of a pursuit, then according to PG 52 of the Warmaster compendium rules, all hits are carried over into the following turn. (ref. Unresolved Hits, second paragraph).

However some large monsters with more than 5 hits have the Badly Hurt rule. This includes Sphinxes, Giants and Stegadons. The Badly Hurt rules states that once a monster has taken half or more of its total hits by the end of the combat phase, but is not killed, then all accumulated hits are discounted and the monster instead reduces it total attacks and hits by half.

So which rule takes precedence at the end of a two round combat involving a large monster with the Badly Hurt rule? Do such monsters in fact carry over their accumulated hits as per the rulebook? Or do they instead become Badly Hurt, in effect regaining some accumulated hits to bring them back to half strength? If this is the case then Stegadons (10 hits) become extremely difficult to kill in close combat.

Example: I charge a Giant in the flank with a unit of chariots. In the first round I inflict 4 unsaved hits on the Giant. I win combat and pursue. In the second round I inflict a further three unsaved hits on the Giant. The Giant has sustained 7 out of 8 possible hits, and is one hit away from dying. I elect to maintain pursuit but the combat phase now ends as we have both fought two rounds of combat.
What happens next?

I see two possible interpretations of this rules contradiction.

Option 1) All accumulated Hits are retained by Monsters with the Badly Hurt Rule at the end of 2 rounds of combat, even if they have been Badly Hurt. The monster's maximum Hits value is reduced to half value, its current hits stay as they are.
In my example the Giant remains with seven accumulated hits, is now Badly Hurt and has its attacks reduced by half.

Option 2) Once a Monster has been Badly Hurt at the end of 2 rounds of combat, all accumulated hits are discounted and the model fights at half hits and half attacks.
In my example, the Giant is healed back to 4 hits remaining but now fights with half attacks.

I have always played option 1 as the correct interpretation. But am I correct?

Thoughts and opinions welcome.

Iain

[Aquahog]

We discussed the attacks in the wmrc but not the wounds. However I'm positive option 1 is the correct one. There is no healing of wounds while engaged.

[Toothpick]

I'm sorry, but I would go with option 2. My reason(s) being that the Badly Hurt rule quite clearly states that at the end of the shooting or combat phase the hits and attacks are both reduced to 4. If option 1 is chosen, then the badly hurt rule only works for the shooting phase, so in your example if the 7 wounds were inflicted during the shooting phase then the giant would be on 4 wounds at the end of the shooting phase, but still at 7 wounds if they are inflicted in an unresolved combat.

My question for this conundrum is, do specific special monster/army rules take precedence over the normal game rules?

[Dark Omen]

Thanks for the replies.
My issue with the second interpretation is that the Badly Hurt rule was designed for original Warmaster, where the concept of a continuing combat where hits were retained was never accounted for.
Originally, a Monster could ONLY become Badly Hurt once a combat was over - by one side disengaging - regardless of how many rounds the combat lasted.
So as I see it  the rule was originally designed to make Monsters a bit weaker, preventing them from wrecking enemy units with their high number of attacks over the course of several rounds of combat.

If we apply the Badly Hurt rules as written to the Revolution ruleset, it actually makes monsters a lot stronger. Stegadons for example have ten hits. You could in theory inflict 9 hits on a Stegadon over two rounds of combat only to have four of them "regenerated" by the Badly Hurt rule, even if the Stegadon is still pursued by enemies.

My interpretation is that Badly Hurt reduces the MAXIMUM number of hits and attacks to half the original values.
So if the Monster somehow survives a further round of combat  in the turn after it is Badly Hurt, once the engagement is over it can potentially disengage and regain up to half of its hits.

I will be keen to hear any more opinions on the issue.

Iain

[Aquahog]

I'm sorry, but I would go with option 2. My reason(s) being that the Badly Hurt rule quite clearly states that at the end of the shooting or combat phase the hits and attacks are both reduced to 4. If option 1 is chosen, then the badly hurt rule only works for the shooting phase, so in your example if the 7 wounds were inflicted during the shooting phase then the giant would be on 4 wounds at the end of the shooting phase, but still at 7 wounds if they are inflicted in an unresolved combat.

My question for this conundrum is, do specific special monster/army rules take precedence over the normal game rules?

Of course it works for the combat phase as well. Not all combats carry over and for those that do you still reduce the attacks for the next player's turn. I'll ask other members of the committee to drop by and weigh in but I'm fairly certain this was the outcome of our previous discussion.

[Geep]

It's a negative to monsters if they can suffer the badly hurt debuff in a continuing combat, and most monsters aren't that great to begin with.

There could be an option 3- 'Badly hurt' only comes into effect if the monster ends a combat round unengaged but has had sufficient hits caused against it to trigger the effect.
That would most accurately reflect the original rules.

[Aldhick]

Good point Dark Omen. This is typical example of not-so-obvious conflict of the original special rules and new combat rules. The intention was clearly the option 1. No "regenartion" of course! We will discuss wheter to adjust the wording or just put it in Q&A.

[Aquahog]

It's a negative to monsters if they can suffer the badly hurt debuff in a continuing combat, and most monsters aren't that great to begin with.

There could be an option 3- 'Badly hurt' only comes into effect if the monster ends a combat round unengaged but has had sufficient hits caused against it to trigger the effect.
That would most accurately reflect the original rules.

On the other hand they can't be picked out in the combat line anymore since front targeting is mandatory if possible.

Yeah 3rd option is the least invasive. Will bring it to the table and we'll see.

[Ole]

i just realized that we might have played it wrong all those years.

Thanks Ian for bringing it up. And you being an native speaker does help, I suppose.

We counted the wounds inflicted and once it past the half of it, the number of Attacks where halfed.

The way we should have played it is:

And the end of a combat the odd hits are all until the half of the total. After reaching the half the odd hits are half till dead. Sorry it is late and my brain is not spilling english like it should be.

Example:
A giant that leaves combat with 3 wounds inflicted goes up to 8 again and a giant that leaves combat with 7 wounds inflicted goes up to 4 wounds after combat.