[AL] Daemon

[olrick]

Hello everyone,
 this weekend I played my Daemon army, for the french campaign.
I chose the original daemon list because the changes in the tournament list are in my opinion irrelevant.

As much the reduction of the cost of the characters is a good idea, as much the modification of the swarm that lose their 6+ save at the same cost is not justified.

The table of daemon instability  which replaces the result of the 6 from recovering a stand to a useless effect of  power of gods.
This army is already hard enough to play not to deprive itself what makes it the charm
During the four games of the weekend I lost because of the instability 11 units and I recovered 4.

So would it be possible in the Revolution lists to return to the initial instability table, and if we  reduce the save  of the daemon swarm, reduce the cost to 35 points.
What is your opinion?

[empireaddict]

This also matches my experience.  I thought the old instability table was OK.  The "positive" outcome of the new one can see already damaged units attacking when you don't want them to!

Also, looking at the data from the Saffron Walden, Colchester, or Stirling tournaments, the last time they were used was November 2015.  No other army has such a long absence.  Have people just stopped using them competitively?

Personally, I wouldn't run them in a tournament.  Everytime I play them they usually reach break because of the instability table.

[Geep]

I'm not commenting on their ability as an army, but couldn't absence from tournaments also just be an indicator of their rarity as an army?
They are uncommon and expensive if you want the GW models, and I know of no other party currently making suitable daemon models.

I prefer the original list, but by WMR rules the daemons may get too much of a boost there- The ability to spam the raise daemon spell is powerful but limited if the daemon units are fully wiped out in one engagement. In WMR it's harder to do that, giving more time to replace lost stands and potentially swing the game. This is just a thought, I have no experience yet using daemons.

[Aldhick]

Have you noticed, that in WMR, the effect of the instability was softened compared to the Tournament list?

I can put the 6+ save up for discussion in WMRC, but I personally belive it was removed for a reason.

[olrick]

I totally agree with the withdrawal of the 6+ Save. But the cost of the unit must be down.
as far as WMR is concerned it has no influence on the list, since it is an army rule.
I'm just proposing to lower the cost of the swarm and return to the old table of instability.
I' m playing with this army for almost 10 years and I never understand the reason of the tournament list.

[empireaddict]

@Geep, on the rarity being due to scarce models, the times they were used the players were using a mix of GW originals and proxies of various types.  In some ways, the list is one of the easiest to proxy given the variety of alternate options that are out there?

[wmchaos2000]

On topic:
I´ve had this discussion (kind of) with one of the writers.
Turned out that losing the unit is "almost equal" to losing one stand, so thats the latest version of the rules as I know it.
(you do not roll unless you have lost one stand=one more stand lost is vital)
I think this change got through.
Please correct me, if I am wrong. 

About swarms: not sure, 6+ is bliss, but 4 hits and no drive back is better, so...
Maybe 40p? Maybe not.

[olrick]

Losing a stand or a unit is not the same for the army breakpoint 
There is no logic about the new table of instability the old one was equitable in view of the ravages of the result 1 or 2 as the case may be.
The new result 6 has no consistency and sends directly the units concerned to a certain death.
As for the cost of swarms if we remove the 6 + which in my opinion is right, then compare (skaven) of the other swarms the fair cost would be rather 35 pts
Otherwise the rest of the tournament list is rather smart about reducing the price of the characters.

[Ole]

The original Daemonlist is:

Daemonic Instability.
At the start of the player's own Command phase, before making any initiatives moves, all Daemon units that have taken at least 1 casualty (ie lost at least one stand out of 3) must make a 'daemonic instability' test. Roll a D6. If the unit has lost 2 stands (ie has only 1 stand remaining from 3) deduct 1 from the roll.
0-1   The unit is destroyed - the daemons fade way and are absorbed back into the realm of chaos from which they came. If a character is with the unit it is destroyed too.
2-3   The unit becomes Confused - if not already Confused the stand becomes Confused as it is torn between this world and the next.
4-5   No effect - unless the unit is Confused in which case it ceases to be Confused as it is favoured with the invigorating power of chaos.
6   Replace a stand - daemons pour from the chaos void to reinforce their brethren - replace one of the casualty stands - a unit with 2 stands now has 3 stands again.

The Daemon Tournamentlist is:

Daemonic Instability.
At the start of the player's own Command phase, before making any initiatives moves, all Daemon units that have taken at least 1 casualty (i.e. lost at least 1 stand out of 3) must make a 'Daemonic Instability' test. Roll a D6. If the unit has lost 2 stands (i.e. has only 1 stand remaining from 3) deduct 1 from the roll.
0-1   The unit is destroyed - the daemons fade away and are absorbed back into the Realm of Chaos from which they came. If a character is with the unit it is destroyed too.
2-3   The unit becomes confused - if not already confused the stand becomes confused as it is torn between this world and the next.
4-5   No effect - unless the unit is confused in which case it ceases to be confused as it is favoured with the invigorating power of Chaos.
6   The unit feels the power of the gods. As a result it attacks the closest enemy within initiative range. If there is no enemy in initiative range the unit ignores command penalties for the lost stand till its next turn.

The WMR Daemonlist is:

Daemonic Instability.
At the start of the player's own Command phase, before making any initiatives moves, all Daemon units that have taken at least 1 casualty (i.e. lost at least 1 stand out of 3) must make a 'Daemonic Instability' test. Roll a D6. If the unit has lost 2 stands (i.e. has only 1 stand remaining from 3) deduct 1 from the roll.
0-1   One stand is destroyed - the daemons fade away and are absorbed back into the Realm of Chaos from which they came. Remove one stand form play. If a character is with the unit and the last stand is removed the character is destroyed too.
2-3   The unit becomes confused - if not already confused the stand becomes confused as it is torn between this world and the next.
4-5   No effect - unless the unit is confused in which case it ceases to be confused as it is favoured with the invigorating power of Chaos.
6   The unit feels the power of the gods. As a result it attacks the closest enemy within initiative range. If there is no enemy in initiative range the unit ignores command penalties for the lost stand till its next turn.

It was agreed that the original Daemonic Instability was way to strong. (The Tournamentlist is better over all)
But the trouble with the Tournament Daemonic Instability is that on a change of 1/6 your unit is just gone and because of this sometimes your Breakpoint.

But because the Daemonic Instability is kind of fluffy it was changed to lose another stand rather than the whole unit.

[Geep]

That sounds like a good move.

It's pretty nasty for the daemon player- easy to have units become confused or get pulled into charges they may not want to do. I'm still yet to play daemons in any version, so can't make any informed comments on the power of it.

[empireaddict]

Here's my compromise suggestion.  Same chance of 'good' outcome as 'bad' outcome.  As I said before, a damaged unit automatically charging an enemy is not a good thing.  Especially if you are close to break and actually want it to evade away from trouble.

Daemonic Instability.

At the start of the player's own Command phase, before making any initiatives moves, all Daemon units that have taken at least 1 casualty (i.e. lost at least 1 stand out of 3) must make a 'Daemonic Instability' test. Roll a D6. If the unit has lost 2 stands (i.e. has only 1 stand remaining from 3) deduct 1 from the roll.

0-1   One stand is destroyed - the daemons fade away and are absorbed back into the Realm of Chaos from which they came. Remove one stand form play. If a character is with the unit and the last stand is removed the character is destroyed too.

2-3   The unit becomes confused - if not already confused the stand becomes confused as it is torn between this world and the next.

4-5   No effect - unless the unit is confused in which case it ceases to be confused as it is favoured with the invigorating power of Chaos.

6   Replace a stand - daemons pour from the chaos void to reinforce their brethren - replace one of the casualty stands - a unit with 2 stands now has 3 stands again.

[Aldhick]

You mean making it even stronger than the original one?

[Ole]

You mean making it even stronger than the original one?

Looks like it.

[empireaddict]

I could also live with the original one!  The current one certainly acts as a deterrent to me playing Daemons.  And their absence from our recent tournaments suggests that I am not alone.-

[Ole]

Maybe the 6 does not have to be the best result on the roll. May be the best result is the 4-5.

I believe the Daemonic Instability is unfair but fluffy. The WMR Chart is the best there ad the moment. It is no power creep.

But we could change it to:

0-1   One stand is destroyed - the daemons fade away and are absorbed back into the Realm of Chaos from which they came. Remove one stand form play. If a character is with the unit and the last stand is removed the character is destroyed too.
2   The unit feels the power of the gods. As a result it attacks the closest enemy within initiative range. If there is no enemy in initiative range the unit ignores command penalties for the lost stand till its next turn.
3-4   The unit becomes confused - if not already confused the stand becomes confused as it is torn between this world and the next.
5-6  No effect - unless the unit is confused in which case it ceases to be confused as it is favoured with the invigorating power of Chaos.