A disadvantage is having a ships thans even slower than your rest of the fleet like Imps battleships (who cant even turn if only shot at... thats the most stupid rule ever, thay should be able to turn in the second movement when they reach 15cm in total).
I just wish that the other 2 Chaos grand cruisers were even worth taking. Perhaps I need to open my mind a bit, but I've never found a point to even fielding one of them.
Russ
Of course based on Smotherman, FP6 WBs cost only 27 points vs the 31.5 points of the Desolator. I think that was why it did have FP6 and only has a 10 point increase over the Desolator. Smotherman comes out to 317.5 points for the Desolator while it comes out to 329 points for my WB, non-torp Desperation for a 12 point difference. 10 points is low then but it shouldn't be more than 15.
I think it should work at 315 but just to be safe, make it 320 points. I can't justify increasing it any further without playtesting unless the Desolator also gets a points bump. I always felt it was a 320 point battleship. 300 was just too cheap.
Re-revised the stats.
Why would anyone take the Desolator? Well, it's still a heavy lance boat. :)
So is that with or without the torps?
How would you cost it if it had prow WBs instead of the str9 torp salvo. It seems the thought is that its imbalanced as a total of str18 battery and 3 lances can be focused to a side. Would it be balanced if the lances went down to 2 and the prow battery dropped to 30cm?
I ask simply because I have a torpedo battleship, and I have a carrier battleship. Id like a dedicated battleship without having to always be reloading ordnance. Impies have one, and I want one :)
Yes!
*Voss Prow Light Cruisers (Endeavour, Endurance, Defiant) should get a 6+ prow at no extra cost. These vessels are never used as they are. They die (I experienced and tried...).
<snip>
* Despoiler statistic change (PROW LAUNCH BAYS :) ).
<snip>
But, most 'broken' the voss prows.
So voss cruisers with 45* and a prow deflector? hmmm, I could see live for that. Pondering...
But the designers should be slapped for giving a no on prow armour for them. A clear example of overestimating the capacity of the vessels. I mean, the Defiant is (along the Hellebore) the most useless vessel ever.
Despoiler from how model is build:
prow launch bay str4
port/starboard launch bays str 2
port/starboard weapon batteries str 10 @ 60cm
dorsal lance str 3 @ 60cm lfr
| Cerberus Class Heavy Cruiser 190 pts |
| Hits - 8 Armour - 5+ | Speed - 25cm Shields - 2 | Turns - 45° Turrets - 2 |
| Armament P+S WB P+S Lances Dorsal Lances Prow WB | Speed/Range 30cm 30cm 30cm 30cm | Strength 6 2 2 6 | Arc L+R L+R LFR LFR |
| Charon Class Heavy Cruiser 210 pts |
| Hits - 8 Armour - 5+ | Speed - 25cm Shields - 2 | Turns - 45° Turrets - 2 |
| Armament P+S WB P+S WB Dorsal WB Prow WB | Speed/Range 45cm 60cm 60cm 60cm | Strength 6 4 6 6 | Arc L+R L+R LFR LFR |
| Hecate Class Heavy Cruiser 250 pts |
| Hits - 8 Armour - 5+ | Speed - 25cm Shields - 2 | Turns - 45° Turrets - 2 |
| Armament P+S L. Bays P+S Lances Dorsal Lances Prow WB | Speed/Range as craft 45cm 60cm 60cm | Strength 4 2 2 6 | Arc - L+R LFR LFR |
But why choose an Executor over an Acheron? The Acheron has advantages in: range, firepower, and speed. Not to mention, it fits in the Chaos list better.
The repulsive is pretty strange in that it breaks conventional grand cruiser wisdom and has prow weaponry.
Prolly cuz it was made before they knew exactly what they wanted grand cruisers to be about.
In addition to the above mentioned vessels, here are two ships we are proposing to add to this list:
Hecate heavy cruiser, using current profile and expanded fluff.
Hellfire heavy cruiser, NEW profile:
Hecate heavy cruiser, using current profile and expanded fluff.
Hellfire heavy cruiser, NEW profile:
240 points
Cruiser/8HP, 25cm, 45deg turns, Armor 5+, 2 shields, 2 turrets
Port WB's: 8x45cm
Stbd WB's: 8x45cm
Port lances: 2x30cm
Stbd lances: 2x30cm
Dorsal lances: 2x45cm
Prow WB's: 6x30cm
Fluff: Slaughter uprated by re-routing output from Scartix Coil from engines to weapons in attempt to up-gun cruiser hull. Design considered failure due to reliability issues and crew constraints but resulted in development of Repulsive grand cruiser.
The powers of Chaos, and likewise their fleets, are myriad. Abaddon may have led a fleet of Chaos Undivided during the Gothic War, but there are nonetheless numerous fleets dedicated solely to the service of one of the Great Powers of Chaos – Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. Over the next few months we’ll be releasing a number of new models to provide additional specific options for each of the Powers of Chaos, beginning this month with the Terminus Est, flagship of the Plaguefleets of Nurgle. In a series of accompanying articles, we’ll be looking at the Powers of Chaos in Battlefleet Gothic. In this first instalment, Matt Keefe and Pete Haines introduce the Major Powers, plus full rules for the Terminus Est and the Plaguefleets of Nurgle.
From the Powers of Chaos pdf:QuoteThe powers of Chaos, and likewise their fleets, are myriad. Abaddon may have led a fleet of Chaos Undivided during the Gothic War, but there are nonetheless numerous fleets dedicated solely to the service of one of the Great Powers of Chaos – Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. Over the next few months we’ll be releasing a number of new models to provide additional specific options for each of the Powers of Chaos, beginning this month with the Terminus Est, flagship of the Plaguefleets of Nurgle. In a series of accompanying articles, we’ll be looking at the Powers of Chaos in Battlefleet Gothic. In this first instalment, Matt Keefe and Pete Haines introduce the Major Powers, plus full rules for the Terminus Est and the Plaguefleets of Nurgle.
Check the bold part. That's what we want. :)
Tzeentch
Khorne
Slaanesh
I remember the Khornate one... I think... Given the designs available conversions should be possible with guidelines from you.From the Powers of Chaos pdf:QuoteThe powers of Chaos, and likewise their fleets, are myriad. Abaddon may have led a fleet of Chaos Undivided during the Gothic War, but there are nonetheless numerous fleets dedicated solely to the service of one of the Great Powers of Chaos – Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. Over the next few months we’ll be releasing a number of new models to provide additional specific options for each of the Powers of Chaos, beginning this month with the Terminus Est, flagship of the Plaguefleets of Nurgle. In a series of accompanying articles, we’ll be looking at the Powers of Chaos in Battlefleet Gothic. In this first instalment, Matt Keefe and Pete Haines introduce the Major Powers, plus full rules for the Terminus Est and the Plaguefleets of Nurgle.
Check the bold part. That's what we want. :)
Tzeentch
Khorne
Slaanesh
Hi Horizon! :D This is EXACTLY what we are working on, complete with flavored battlebarges, specific fleet lists, etc. Ray is working on this as well so if you liked his Tzeentch fleet list, you will probably see some form of it again. This is why we are bringing up adding ships to the list, as it will be a "Powers of Chaos" book in total as opposed to just something that only dredges up ships from the Horus Heresy. Here's the painful part. flavored battlebarge models actually existed. the Terminus Est really was the first of what were supposed to be more models, and second Chaos BB model master was actually completed,but it was all unplugged for reasons beyond the scope of this post. I will try to dig up a copy of the pic for the master model as it appeared around 2003-04.
Yes everyone, a re-profiled Despoiler will be one of the options. Before we gets lots of input on this, it will be a minor re-shuffle to make the prow more WYSIWYG as opposed to a complete re-do, so please refrain from the "please add more WB's/lances/Ether Cannon/whatever." However, there WILL be some options... :)The variant I posted was different, not stronger. Hope you use it as wysiwyg:
Here's the part all the Chaos lovers are going to hate, and I KNOW I’m going to catch some vitriol for this. Chaos as an entity only possess only one real forgeworld (Baji IV), where many (though not all) of their escorts are constructed. Their escorts are all either renegade Imperial escorts or based on xenos, stolen or obsolete Imperial technology. In sum, even Abbadon’s 13th Black Crusade for all its destruction only managed to capture at best maybe four or five sectors, and even then only at great cost and in many cases only temporarily. Gazgull Thraka did at least that much in the War for Armageddon when he captured and held (and still holds) nearly two dozen worlds in the sectors surrounding Armageddon, and he is only one of many Ork warbosses throughout the galaxy that can claim such a great (or in some cases even greater) dominion of fallen Imperial worlds.A forgeworld that builds Despoilers and Acherons and more though. ;) Yes, they stole Infidel designs.
Where am I going with this? Chaos is not the be-all, end-all some fans make them out to be. They do not have the resources to design and construct new cruiser and battleship designs, though fluff has many examples of them finding and utilizing many ancient pre-heresy warships, some of unimaginable size and dimensions in more than one case. Except for the Planet Killer, every capital ship they own is stolen or subverted from the Imperium, and the vast majority of cases these are obsolete ships decommissioned due to design flaws or for possessing technology that can no longer be economically maintained. The Planet Killer was a one-off ship designed and constructed around a massive and extremely powerful artifact for the specific purpose of intimidation or destroying worlds when intimidation proved insufficient.Well, Loyal Marine Chapters own ancient Venerable Battle Barges. That means that Chapters who went heretic did have the same ancient vessels and took them to the eye.
What does this mean? While we will be entertaining new cruiser hull ideas, it has to be something that is different from but closely correlates to the ancient Cypra Mundi pattern vessels Chaos would have access to. That means we are not entertaining “transitional†designs new to the game that are somewhere between the two, such as torpedo-armed 5+ prow cruisers and the like, or anything that has to be scratch-built or requiring multiple model hulls to make in any extent whatsoever.Hence the fact some of us said Chaos doesn't need new ships at all! :)
The Hecate fills this prerequisite nicely as a pre-Mars vessel built in small numbers after the Styx and before the Mars. The Hellfire was a good idea, but despite how cool the model is in the 2002 Annual (I built one), killing two hulls to make one is no good. However, the Hellfire profile wasn’t very far removed from what a Slaughter heavy cruiser variant would look like so that’s the direction Bob and I went. This is all set in wet mud right now which is why we posted it to the forum first, and Sigoroth made some excellent points concerning the Hellfire that we will take on board to an extent.'kay.
Here’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?Of course the prow should be kept at 5+ for them. Giving an optional torpedo at the prow is good. That means ditching the special critical hit rule for them (faq2010).
Pillager Class Cruiser
175 points
Cruiser/8, Speed: 25cm, 45 Degrees, Armor: 5+, Shields: 2, Turrets: 2
Port Launch Bays: 2
SB Launch Bays: 2
Port WBatts: 4 @ 45cm
SB WBatts: 4 @ 45cm
Prow WBatts: 6 @ 45cm
Improved Thrusters: +5D6 on All Ahead Full
A forgeworld that builds Despoilers and Acherons and more though. Yes, they stole Infidel designs.
Where am I going with this? Chaos is not the be-all, end-all some fans make them out to be. They do not have the resources to design and construct new cruiser and battleship designs, though fluff has many examples of them finding and utilizing many ancient pre-heresy warships, some of unimaginable size and dimensions in more than one case. Except for the Planet Killer, every capital ship they own is stolen or subverted from the Imperium, and the vast majority of cases these are obsolete ships decommissioned due to design flaws or for possessing technology that can no longer be economically maintained. The Planet Killer was a one-off ship designed and constructed around a massive and extremely powerful artifact for the specific purpose of intimidation or destroying worlds when intimidation proved insufficient.Well, Loyal Marine Chapters own ancient Venerable Battle Barges. That means that Chapters who went heretic did have the same ancient vessels and took them to the eye.
QuoteWhat does this mean? While we will be entertaining new cruiser hull ideas, it has to be something that is different from but closely correlates to the ancient Cypra Mundi pattern vessels Chaos would have access to. That means we are not entertaining “transitional†designs new to the game that are somewhere between the two, such as torpedo-armed 5+ prow cruisers and the like, or anything that has to be scratch-built or requiring multiple model hulls to make in any extent whatsoever.Hence the fact some of us said Chaos doesn't need new ships at all! :)
QuoteHere’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?
Of course the prow should be kept at 5+ for them. Giving an optional torpedo at the prow is good. That means ditching the special critical hit rule for them (faq2010).
Question: When torps are available to the Vengeance Prow then it can also fit an exterminatus weapon to its prow. Agreed?
Yes yes true.
But wasn't it written in the aftermath of the 13th crusade that Chaos had build new vessels. I for 100% certainty know the Acheron was mentioned.
edit..
LastSpartacus.
All fleets have gaps and weaknesses and strenghts. A gap in the Chaos fleet is light cruisers. So no need to fill it.
However!!
Even now Imperial vessels turn renegade (not necessarily Chaos!!!) and fight other IN vessels. Such renegade vessels are easily lured into Chaos fleets.
So, you could end up with a Dauntless 1:1 profile in a Chaos fleet.
A governor or captain with a Dauntless going renegade is also very plausible.
Here’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?
But you havn't explained the reasoning behind no light cruisers in chaos, or how it would fill weakness.
If there is some fluff reason as to why there are no old light cruiser hulls, so be it. I find my Heretic class to be underwhelming and a fluff piece anyway, just for fun.
As to one per every 1500 points, Nate, that doesnt sound overpowered. Specifically because, well, I would only do it for fluff. I think it is a proven fact that Imperial ships only compete against chaos cruisers in a supporting battleline. Chaos cruisers are just superior, one on one.
Really, can we ditch the Hellfire name. Seriously. It messes with the (cool) greek underworld theme. There're plenty of other names that you could use. Charon, Cerberus, Nyx, Thanatos, Cronus, Tartarus, Minos, Hypnos, Gorgyra, Erebus, etc (and these are just the cool ones). Out of these I recommend Cerberus as the short range of a heavy Slaughter combined with its ferocious firepower seems apropos of the famed hellhound.
Really, can we ditch the Hellfire name. Seriously. It messes with the (cool) greek underworld theme. There're plenty of other names that you could use. Charon, Cerberus, Nyx, Thanatos, Cronus, Tartarus, Minos, Hypnos, Gorgyra, Erebus, etc (and these are just the cool ones). Out of these I recommend Cerberus as the short range of a heavy Slaughter combined with its ferocious firepower seems apropos of the famed hellhound.
I'm in total agreement here. Though, if the Cerberus name is used I'd like to see either the broadside or prow weapons get diminished a littled and it given a third dorsal lance. ;)
QuoteHere’s an entirely separate but related issue coming only from me, meaning I have NOT discussed it with the other HA’s. I have always been bothered by the fact that the Vengeance GC’s weren’t given prow torps. While 6+ armor is a definite NO, what’s the feeling about giving these 6 prow torps as an option? Even if we do it, it should be expensive, and it will be available to ALL variants if we do it. Keep in mind I haven’t run this past the other HA’s yet. Thoughts?
Nearly missed this in here. While I don't mind seeing an option for the vengeance to gain prow torpedoes, I do NOT want to see these as standard and the price on the vengeance to get a boost. True, this is partly because I like to field vengeance and my 1500 point fleet takes two, but also because I find them quite capable in their broadside role. Adding prow torpedoes makes it tempting to run them head long toward an enemy for some firepower on the way in but exposes their 5+ armor and that's something which makes the design conflicted IMO.
TBH, they have good enough firepower that I don't really miss the lack of prow weapon.
Always wanted to utilize more of those WB+lance bits so this is a mid-range cruiser with lances (prety much a carnage with lance armament)
190pts Executor Class (looks like slaughterer but with different bridge)
Hits 8,moove 25cm,turn 45, shields 2, armor 5+, turrets 2
Port WB 10 45
Starboard WB 10 45
Port lance 2 45
Starboard lance 2 45
doing this from work so can't find the file with point costings, so correct me if i was wrong
Jumping up here. Sig may be pretty vocal but in No Friggin Way he has gotten personal in that post.
Sig - you are getting personal which is not productive.
Sig - you are getting personal which is not productive. And you are forgetting the increased point cost compared to slaughterer and weaker shield, range and hull compared to vengeance.
190pts Executor Class (looks like slaughterer but with different bridge)Should be compared to the Hades.
Hits 8,moove 25cm,turn 45, shields 2, armor 5+, turrets 2
Port WB 10 45
Starboard WB 10 45
Port lance 2 45
Starboard lance 2 45
Hi all! We're getting ready to debate ships, keeping in mind that the Hecate is pretty much a shoe-in as a Mars precursor. BTW Sigoroth, you said something about a cruiser variant Hecate without dorsal weaponry. Where did you see that profile? The only Hecate I know about was a heavy cruiser variant.
I'm pitching to the HA's a Slaughter heavy cruiser to replace the Hellfire. I've never minded the name, but Sigoroth's suggestion for a mythological name intrigues me. You guys fight about it and tell me what we're calling it.
I am REALLY intrigued with the Pillager profile, though to be honest I still haven't play-tested it so I can't say what its really worth (Smotherman's formula is a guideline, NOT a hard and fast mechanic). However, I HATE the name. Pillager sounds like something to name an Ork kroozer, not something from Chaos. Fight over the name for this one as well and tell me what we're calling it.
In my mind, three is the upper ceiling for new capital ships for Chaos, keeping in mind that every class of ship they have was stolen or somehow maintained from the Heresy. I'll go with with the Dark Mechanicus hereteks' ability to duplicate and refit stolen cruisers on Baji IV, but designing a capital ship from scratch is an entirely different and far more complex problem set from simply refitting or even duplicating one. When taken as a whole, Chaos should in no way have anywhere near the range and depth of capital ship classes the Imperium does. This does NOT count the one-off character battle-barges, which fluff describes were almost as varied as the Primarchs themselves. Fluff also describes that just about every legion had some kind of unique and exceedingly tough battlebarge as their flagship heading the speartip, but we will only be making the three remaining main flavors plus a generic fifth. I will leave the other character battlebarges from the Horus Heresy series for the fans to create house rules for.
We should have something for you all to look at by the beginning of next week at the latest. I think it will generate a lot of smiles, except maybe from Sigoroth and Horizon, who would disagree with me if I said rain was wet. :D ;D ;)
- Nate
horizon:
Acheron some lances @ 60cm: str.2 focus at one side = str.6 batteries. Not impressive.
Now at 45cm it can suddenly focus:
2 (port) lances + 2 (dorsal) lances + 6 (prow) batteries
equals:
(2x3) + (2x3) + 6 =
6 + 6 + 6 = 18 weapon battery equivalent. From 45cm and down.
max values on focus plus max range for max power:
Carnage maximum battery = 16 focusable. (45cm)
Murder maximum battery = 10 focusable. (45cm)
Styx maximum battery = 12 focusable. (60cm)
Devestation maximum battery = 12 focusable (30cm)
Hades maximum battery = 16 focusable (45cm)
Slaughter maximum battery = 20 focusable (30cm)
So... only Slaughter has more total firepower in focus. Shorter ranged though. The Acheron is best at 45cm. And the Styx is best at 60cm (heh heh).
From this you can see how effective the Carnage/Acheron combination is. At 45cm this brings an immense battery area to bearing plus several lances. [/quote[
Am I that worse these days? lol
I mean, HA is heading good directions overall (Tau, Marines, FAQ) and nitpicking is just a bad habbit we all have.
Mythological names is indeed the way to go. To keep the Chaos trend.
I await next week with my pitchfork raised.
I am REALLY intrigued with the Pillager profile, though to be honest I still haven't play-tested it so I can't say what its really worth (Smotherman's formula is a guideline, NOT a hard and fast mechanic). However, I HATE the name. Pillager sounds like something to name an Ork kroozer, not something from Chaos. Fight over the name for this one as well and tell me what we're calling it.
Just to make it clear, I haven't playtested it either. It was just something I spitballed. I was trying to come up with a carrier that wouldn't fill the exact same role as the Devastation. I had the idea that maybe the ship would have been designed to fight escorts rather than other cruisers so batteries rather than lances seemed appropriate and the extra turret found on the Dev wouldn't be as necessary. The pirate hunting theme in my little intro paragraph for the Pillager followed from there. I really like the idea of a ship that was originally designed to hunt pirates going pirate itself. I'm not dead set on the name Pillager as it doesn't quite fit the Chaos naming scheme but all the good synonyms are already taken by Chaos and Ork ships. We could use the name from one of my rejected ideas: Ravage. Is that any better? Anyone else want to chime in on the name or proposed statline?
I will be playtesting these in detail next weekend to see how they play in the Gauntlet scenario and immersed in a fleet. Sigoroth recommended Charon, Cerberus, Nyx, Thanatos, Cronus, Tartarus, Minos, Hypnos, Gorgyra, and Erebus as names. Cerebus is his vote to replace the Hellfire proposal. The Pillager is your ship- pick from the rest of the names and tell me what it's called. nothing Orky so Ravage is out!
I like Havoc too, especially if it has AC. You know, letting loose the dogs of war, and all :)
I like Antagonist, Butcher, Slayer, Extermination, Termination.
For heavies I'd say Abyss, Underworld, Necropolis, Nephilim, Inferno.
So no new cruiser hulls, only heavies then? I like all my suggestions but Neropolis for it.
Well since the current carrier is called a Devastation, how about the Decimation class? The word has come to mean pretty much the same thing over time [though originally a form of discipline used by the Romans to punish cowardly troops, whereby 1 in 10 of the offenders, randomly chosen, would be bludgeoned to death by the remaining 9].
From what I've seen so far, I'm liking Rampage, Inferno, Charon, Cerberus, Thanatos, Tartarus, Gorgyra, and Hellhound. Again, that's just me.
- Nate
From what I've seen so far, I'm liking Rampage, Inferno, Charon, Cerberus, Thanatos, Tartarus, Gorgyra, and Hellhound. Again, that's just me.
- Nate
That would be:
Rampage or Inferno for the Cruiser and
Charon, Cerberus, Thanatos, Tartarus or Gorgyra for the
My preferences in Bold. Hellhound is already a 40k vehicle, so it might be better to quietly forget that one.
Tartarus is a great name. Gehenna?
Are we only thinking of heavy cruiser names at this point? Don't know if a normal cruiser is in the works.
And do we have current proposed stats for any of these ships? Theres been alot of hull designs thrown around in the past few pages.
I said slugger, not sluggish. Its simply missing a hardpoint, inexplicably.As I explained it isn't. It is a xenon design. It has enough firepower. It should not be changed.
Unless I'm mistaken, these are the three ships under consideration. I believe the Hecate is being included completely as is. The Hellfire might be getting tweaked a bit and is getting renamed (my vote is for Charon). The Pillager is being tested, is probably losing the improved thrusters, might be tweaked further, and is being renamed (my vote is still for Havoc and I'm the one who made the ship up in the first place).
Hecate Class Heavy Cruiser
240 Points
Cruiser/8, Speed: 25cm, 45 Degrees, Armor: 5+, Shields: 2, Turrets: 3
Port Launch Bays: 2
SB Launch Bays: 2
Port WBatts: 6 @ 45cm Left
SB WBatts: 6 @ 45cm Right
Prow Lances: 2 @ 60cm Front
Dorsal Lances: 2 @ 60cm L/F/R
So, like Horizon, I think the Acheron is a balanced ship but as a "cheap knock-off" or "experimental design" it shouldn't be used to determine the maximum capabilities of other ships. In other words, I'd not like to see a limit on other CBs firepower based upon what the Acheron can put out. Perhaps a limit on broadside 60cm weaponry without some sort of exceptional justification, but that's about it.
Rampage sounds like an Ork name to me. Apostate is an escort name too. For the heavy Slaughter I really recommend Cerberus, even though it isn't my personal favourite (Thanatos and Charon are my favourites, followed by most of the others before Cerberus). The reason I recommend it is because Cerberus was THE hellhound. Nasty big doggy. Since the Slaughter is an up close mauler with all the subtly and finesse of a half-brick to the head and this ship is a heavy version of it (I'd keep the broadside ranges low too) then the name seems to fit. I'll just keep the rest of the proposed names as individual ship names instead (for Imperial ships).
As for the "Pillager" I think that d'Artagnan gave some really good names. I prefer the sound of an Annihilation class cruiser best.
Unless I'm mistaken, these are the three ships under consideration. I believe the Hecate is being included completely as is. The Hellfire might be getting tweaked a bit and is getting renamed (my vote is for Charon). The Pillager is being tested, is probably losing the improved thrusters, might be tweaked further, and is being renamed (my vote is still for Havoc and I'm the one who made the ship up in the first place).
Hecate Class Heavy Cruiser
240 Points
Cruiser/8, Speed: 25cm, 45 Degrees, Armor: 5+, Shields: 2, Turrets: 3
Port Launch Bays: 2
SB Launch Bays: 2
Port WBatts: 6 @ 45cm Left
SB WBatts: 6 @ 45cm Right
Prow Lances: 2 @ 60cm Front
Dorsal Lances: 2 @ 60cm L/F/R
Ah, thank you for posting this, I remember it now. This is the terribad stat-line I referred to earlier. This profile should not not not become official. This is a Hades with 4WBs replaced with launch bays and an extra turret for 40 pts. This is terribad for 3 reasons. Firstly, a carrier shouldn't be encouraged to go prow on like this ship and a carrier that was designed to operate without the support of a fleet should certainly not be closing with the enemy. The point of this ship would be to stay away from the enemy.
Secondly, the picture supplied for the Hecate (supplied long before the stats) is that of a Devastation with added dorsal weaponry. Not only is this a more natural base profile for a carrier, particularly one expected to operate alone, but it also makes more sense to refit a Dev rather than a Hades when looking for a "carrier that was capable of defending itself against a modest fleet without the need of supporting vessels". Think about it. If you had a carrier already, but had determined that it was not strong enough to operate alone, would you try to convert a gunship to a carrier or would you try to fit more guns to your current carrier? I think that the latter case is much more sensible.
Thirdly, with this ship I see too much overlap with the Hades. It's not as if people take the Hades for their broadside weaponry. They take them for their forward lances. Sure there is an advantage for not having to reload, therefore being able to LO or whatever, but this basically combines two ships in one. For example, consider a fleet that contains 2 Hades and 2 Devs amongst other things. Now simply replace the 2 Hades with 2 Hecate, losing nothing from your main guns and giving you the 8 AC of the Devs. This frees you up to drop the 2 Devs, giving you 300 points to spend elsewhere.
I would instead suggest making it a Dev with dorsal lances. Prow weaponry possibly extended to 45cm, broadsides dropped to 45cm (which is probably what should happen to the Dev too). Leave it at 240.
Last but not least we have the Pillager. This is a very cool ship, but there’s a few minor tweaks we need to do to it. First off, the +5D6 when AAF is out. It was always the intention that the +5D6/AAF special ability was going to be unique to the Slaughter, and it was REALLY contentious giving it to the Retaliator as well, which is the main reason it ended up being so expensive. Before we fret, let’s think about where a gun-heavy carrier-cruiser bests fits in the cruiser development timeline. Lances were (and still are) the shiny new toy for the Imperial Navy so such a ship would have to be pre-Devastation. This isn’t bad because pre-Devastation implies pre-Murder and harkens back to the time of the Styx when 60cm lances were still rare and relegated to CH’s only. What was the main cruiser around when the Styx was king? That’s right, the Carnage. How’s this for a profile?
Pillager (yech): 190 points
Cruiser/8HP, Turns=45d, Speed=25cm, Armor=5+, Shields=2, Turrets=3
Prow WB’s: 6x60cm L/F/R
Port Launch bays: 2
Stbd Launch bays: 2
Port WB’s: 4x60cm
Stbd WB’s: 4x60cm
In sum, it’s the same defensive capabilities as a Devastation, slightly less firepower overall, but better, longer-ranged firepower over certain aspects. Oh, and to use Horizon’s(?) term, it’s more focusable! :D
Nate:
While I admire your attention to the timeline I do feel that there is something that you've overlooked. This may be deliberate, but you've neglected the original fluff for the Hecate, as written way back in BFG Mag #1(2?). The Hecate was not made by the Imperium. It was made by Chaos Warmasters. Not an Imperial ship at all. Therefore it does not have to bridge the Styx/Mars divide. Mind you, I think that any such bridge would be pointless, since the current IN style cruiser is a radical paradigm shift away from their previous approaches. That is, 6+ prows, torpedoes, slow speed and NC. Not to mention the radically different hull design. The only bridge between the older and newer IN ships that I can see are the Vengeance series CGs.
Therefore I see no implicit reason to give it a Hades statline and, if we except the original Hecate fluff and accompanying picture I actually see explicit reason to reject the Hades statline. It would be much easier to up-gun a Dev than refit a Hades.
On the topic of the Blech class ship, I agree with LS. I much prefer the cheaper ship with the lowered ranges. I even like that it doesn't even have 3 turrets. As for a timeline rationalisation, I don't see why it couldn't be around the same time as the Murder, after the Carnage but as a precursor to the Dev. However I disagree with him on the name. Obviously LS doesn't know his arse from his elbow when it comes to names. :P Annihilation class all the way.
Wow, i must say i was surprised that chaos will get 3 new ships, they already have a lot and others fleets didnt really get new ones.
Nate:
The chaos battle barge Vengeful Spirit says that loyalists may take it as a VBB or any of the options it has. This directly contradicts the Space marine pdf that says you may not choose any of the upgrades on vessels you choose as the VBB.
The rest of the BB options seem alright being slight variants of the Desolator or Despoiler but the Khorne BB seems to the get the short end of the stick with it's weapons range it feels like it could work in a largely slaughter fleet.
Haven't fully looked over the smaller cruisers yet.
Yes, it was purposely ignored. Chaos Warmasters do NOT have the ability to scratchbuild ships, though admittedly they are more likely to be rolling around with extremely rare, one-off pre-heresy (and even pre-Imperial!) vessels than the Imperium is. That being said, I think we came up with a pretty cool explanation for the Hecate.
Agreed, the Hecate is pre-Murder/Hades as written. I disagree completely on up-gunning a Devastation as a solution set, but what we did instead makes sense and actually effects only small but significant changes from the current Hecate profile to reflect its Styx lineage rather than a Hades knock-off.
Be nice, Sig. Just because I don’t know my arse from my elbow doesn’t mean I want someone to spout off to everyone about it! :D That being said, I like Massacre over Annihilation only because it doesn’t fill the mouth as much to say it. In the end, neither of these were selected for the first draft, which can be seen here:
Oh, by the way, in the Cerberus fluff you often refer to it as the Charon. One of these I believe is supposed to refer to a Cerberus class ship named Charon (italicised), but the rest of the time it's a mistake that needs to be edited. Also, in the same bit of fluff there appears the word dissatisfactory. This should be unsatisfactory.
In the Hecate fluff (which I think should be returned to the original anyway) there's a spelling mistake ... orbital docs of Belis Corona. Should obviously be "docks".
There's a lot of stuff here, more than I have time to reply to in the manner it deserves so let me get back to you all on the rest of this tomorrow.
- Nate
By the way, I really hate the new Chaos oppositional powers. I hated it when they brought it out in one of the 3rd (4th?) ed 40k Chaos codices and I hate it now. Khorne and Tzeentch are traditional rivals, and it makes sense that Slaanesh and Nurgle would be enemies (Nurgle is fugly). Slaaneshi love battle, for the pleasure it derives, and Khorne live for it. Nurgle is all about decay and entropy and Tzeentch is the Lord of Change. So Khorne/Slaanesh are natural allies as are Tzeentch/Nurgle.
So Sigoroth, this is a thing you raised in the past as well. However, even in the sacred tome of Slaves to Darkness it was Khorne vs Slaanesh. Nurgle/Tzeentch rarely noted in that book as rivals.
The Armies of Chaos book I had (early 90's) had Khorne vs Slaanesh, Tzeentch vs Nurgle. That was before 4th edition. During 2nd edition of 40k.
Sigoroth says the Cerberus is expensive for what you get and that is probably true. I also think you simply get too much. Except for the just introduced Conqueror the Cerberus can concentrate more firepower at sub 30cm ranges than any other Imperial or Chaos ship.
At 30cm to 45cm only the Vengeance and some battleships can out gun it. This seems a little much. I'd like to see all it's weapons drop down to 30cm and have it lose 2 weapon batteries per broadside. If it's speed went to 30cm to make it a bit more like the Slaughter that'd be great. The name is totally acceptable but I'd still prefer Charon.
As it stands I'm not a fan of the Hecate. It's just a bit too good. I liked the version with the 2 front only prow lances better.
This Inferno incarnation is just pointless in my opinion. You won't play it any differently than a standard Devastation and it costs exactly the same. It's better in just about every situation except when you have an enemy within 30cm of your broadside. Sigoroth, you said all the existing cruiser names are adjectives. They're actually all nouns. I prefer Inferno to Annihilation, but only barely. Also, please stop giving credit for the original Pillager design to Lastspartacus. It was my idea.
The Cerberus is like a heavy Slaughter....Dropping of the speed bonus is a pity though. I'd rather see all weapons at 30cm (perhaps lance @ 45cm if people insist) and 5d6 on AAF, and 30cm speed.
So many carriers, why didn't any 1 make a pure gunboat BB variant:
Desolator hull with 3 sets of broadside WB's like on cargane and lance turrets on top hardpoints:
Port WB 12x60cm
Starboard WB 12x60cm
Dorsal WB 6x60cm
Prow torpedoes - 9
Would make a nice model
Still not a complete gunship. Not happy with the other profile?
str12 60cm broadsides
str2 or str3 60cm dorsal lances
str6 60cm l/r/f prow batteries
Str18 battery and 2-3 lances at 60cm on a broadside isnt a gunship?
Desolator has prow torpedoes and dorsal str 6 WB. No place to mount lances unfortunately, although a broadside WB could get an increase to 16 on it's own and 2 dorsal lances added. But this just looks so much like a retribution
just pointing out to lastspartacus that desolator already has a prow weapon slot taken by torps and dorsal slot taken by L/f/r WB
Not sure but lastspartacus was referring to my Desperation design. Has FP12@60cm WB broadsides, Str 3@60cm dorsal lances and FP6@60cm prow WBs instead of torps and also has 25 cm speed. That's priced at 320.
Ok, so I've done the naming and fluff post, so that's out of the way. I'd like to comment on the actual profiles now. Ok, first off, I do prefer this Hecate profile to the previous one, but taken in conjunction with the "Inferno" and the rest of the fleet there are still some problems.
If you were to take a Styx over a Hecate you would be dropping 6WB@45cmL+R broadsides to pick up 2AC. For this you pay an extra 30 pts. Very very pricey. Now, compare the "Inferno" to a Carnage. If you were to take the Inferno over the Carnage you would be giving up 6WB@45cmL+R, same as in the previous comparison, but this time you would gain 4 AC (twice as much) and only be paying +10 pts (one third the increase) and you'd be getting an extra turret as well.
Sure, the Styx pays a premium for being able to have more than 4 AC, but paying 3 times as much for half the bonus AC is surely a bit much, not to mention the extra turret on top. Ok, some of that is surely that the Styx is overpriced. However, I also think that the current Inferno is probably a touch strong too.
I liked Lastspartacus's original profile better. So instead of being at Carnage level technology it's reduced to Murder level tech. So bring all the guns down from 60cm range to 45cm range. Drop its turrets value down to 2 as well. Bring it down to 180 pts. So then, compared to a Carnage it loses 10WB in the 60cm range band and 6WBs at 45cm or less in exchange for its 4 AC. A much better trade, keeping both viable.
Compared to a Dev this profile would be a little weak. The Dev has roughly equivalent firepower at 45cm and slightly more at 30cm and an extra turret. If this was all it got then I'd be happy with the 10 pts difference. However, the Dev can reach out to 60cm, which makes it clearly superior. It should be remembered though that the Dev is an overpowered ship, and new ship classes shouldn't be made overpowered just to compete with it. In fact, I think that a great balance for the Dev would be to drop its broadside lances down to 45cm range, which would make the profile LS proposed competitive, balance the Dev a good deal and make the broadside lances of the Acheron less "sucky".
Then I would drop the broadside firepower of the Hecate down to 4WBs, to reflect it being a refitted Inferno (Annihilation!). So, compared to theAnni, er, Inferno, it'd get +15cm prow range, +1 turret and +dorsal lances. It'd still be costly at +60pts (+50 should be the maximum for all this) but at least it makes the Styx slightly better in that it only gives up 4WB@45cmL+R for 2AC at +30pts rather than giving up 6WB@45cmL+R.
Right, that's them done. Now the Cerberus (great name choice, where'd you come up with that? ::) ). Ok profile, though if it were up to me I'd drop all ranges to 30cm. Just that bit of extra character. In this case the Slaughter would be simply redirecting energy from engines to power the dorsal lances. A simple upgrade that would require very little in the way of refitting to accomplish. Of course, that's the route you've taken in the fluff too, just that this ship gets a lot of range and firepower for the loss of speed. I don't know, this trade-off might be viable, I just think that the speed for 30cm dorsal lances would definitely be viable.
Regardless of whether or not range gets dropped, there is a massive problem with this ship. Its cost. Would you take 2 Cerberus or 3 Slaughter? At 245 pts it would cost 490 pts for 2 Cerberus vs 495 pts for 3 Slaughter. So that's 8 extra hit points, 2 more shields, +5cm speed, +1d6cm on AAF, +8WB focusable fire at 30cm and +22WB total fire at 30cm. On the other hand the 2 Cerberus get +15cm range on half their guns and cost 5 points less. I know which combination I'd take.
If you start with a Slaughter (165 pts), add dorsal lances (30 pts + 5 pts fudge), and upgrade the broadside weapon batteries ranges (+10 pts +5 pts fudge) you come to 215 pts at absolute maximum. That is fudging twice AND ignoring the loss of speed AND ignoring that the dorsal lances are only 45cm range instead of 60cm. This ship is way way waaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive. Way.
So, a summary of recommended changes:
Inferno: Name changed to Annihilation(!). Ranges dropped to 45cm, turrets dropped to 2, price dropped to 180 pts.
Devastation: lance range dropped to 45cm. (Not a part of this document, but I feel it's necessary and at the very least ships should be balanced against a 45cm broadside Dev rather than against a 60cm one, so it should be kept in mind when considering costs and capabilities of other ships.)
Hecate: broadside WBs dropped to str 4. Fluff restored to Chaos upgrade (refitted Annihilation).
Cerberus: Cost dropped massively. No more than 215 pts, more like 210 pts. And that's still a conservative estimate.
1. By intention from the original designers, the Devastation at 190 points is the bottom price for a Chaos carrier. Justifying the price is why the Devastation has the clunky 2x60cm lance broadside. I own 4 and have already learned how to play with as well as against it so the profile doesn’t bother me, but I HATE modeling it: I use the metal Vengeance Chaos lance bits and use two turrets each side to make it very distinctive form the Slaughter, which also nicely fits the fluff since it’s supposed to be a later (circa M35) cruiser design. I don’t want to change the 190-point price floor as a fundamental tenet of the Chaos fleet so whatever we do to the Inferno, it can’t be cheaper than 190 points. THIS means we can’t simply make it a Murder-carrier, because the end result will be either overpriced as a model at 190 points or too cheap for the Chaos fleet as a whole if valued below 190 points.Devestation modelling: actually the problem would be fixed if the lances were directly plugged into the hull like the Acheron. The deck is more of a battery/lance combination really (see Slaughter).
2. My attempt at making the Inferno a <<<zip>>> your next comments…Odd philosophy. We are not trying to fill gaps in fleets are we?
Having said this, tweaking the Dev is one of the most needed changes. The problem is up-creep, something you, Horizon and several others have remarked upon at length here on the SG forum. Fans are really quick to complain that a profile is overpriced or not strong enough, but OMG let one of the HA’s even SUGGEST a profile might be a tad too strong or underpriced, and the sulfurous, twisted gates of hades itself blow wide open…In case of the Devestation I think there will be a general acceptance to lowering the lance range.
QuoteDevastation: lance range dropped to 45cm. (Not a part of this document, but I feel it's necessary and at the very least ships should be balanced against a 45cm broadside Dev rather than against a 60cm one, so it should be kept in mind when considering costs and capabilities of other ships.)QuoteYou already know my thoughts on this. Agreed to an extent, but there are much bigger fish to fry at the moment.Quote
To be honest I think it is a bigger fish to fry the Devestation then add new classes to Chaos. More means more to think about when balancing fleets. And to be honest: Chaos is not in need of new ships. Yes, it is fun to have more but not needed by a longshot.
I am still advocating a change of Powers of Chaos pt2:
* Adding Barges/Battleships for the major Chaos powers (Adding Black Legion is okay).
* Adding specific God powers in addition to Nurgle.
No new heavy cruisers, cruisers or alike.
Sorry about your hard work.... but keep that stuff for other pdf's, or add them (well tested) into an update of Armada/rulebook. :)
Add new profiles through Warp Rift or so.
Devestation modelling: actually the problem would be fixed if the lances were directly plugged into the hull like the Acheron. The deck is more of a battery/lance combination really (see Slaughter).
So.... you you're saying they did not work together on layout & profile. ;)
Oh, and a note on the Inferno against Eldar. You mention that this ship has the benefit of going abeam. Firstly, both the competing alternatives against an Eldar fleet (Carnage/Dev) also go abeam. Secondly, and more importantly, going abeam grants no extra defence against an Eldar fleet. Eldar always count their targets as closing. Lastly, I think reducing the weapon ranges back down to 45cm would help limit any "brokeness".
Nate:
There are 3 points I think that keep us talking at cross purposes. One is the floor price for a carrier. Apparently a designer originally came up with 190 as a minimum for a Chaos carrier. I don't think that this is a relevant argument. I again put forth my standard counter argument "who cares what a nerdy pom thought over a decade ago?". The Inferno needs to be balanced to be viable and also needs to be different enough from a Dev in order for it to add to the Chaos fleet. This latter point also increases a ship's viability by virtue of disguising any imbalances. Two ships that are near identical are easier to compare. Therefore imbalances become easy to detect. So, if we're going to hobble this ship due to some random thought some pom had years ago which was made under a different set of circumstances, then there's no point in even bothering to include it at all.
The second point is one of Chaos capabilities. You seem to think that they're completely incapable of doing anything. Even if you subscribe to the idea that they cannot scratch-build a ship from the hull up (which I don't necessarily) then there's still no reason to suggest that they can't refit their ships. Hell, they have a refit table, so it's implied that they can. They can repair ships as well, this must happen somewhere. Creating heavy cruisers doesn't even seem that daunting a task. For example, if you took one Slaughter, grabbed some operational long range lances (such as from a salvaged Hades, etc) and added them together, then we have a refit ship that becomes a new class. Voilà . Energy drawn engines to power the lances. Easy. To do something similar to a Dev to make a Hecate would be harder, but not so hard that it's impossible.
This is the minimum ability of Chaos. You could make the argument that it's not impossible for them to scratch-build ships, though this would probably not be a common occurrence. They must have some sort of dockyards to repair and refit ships, and they did make the Planet Killer after all. I would also argue that the less control they have over being able to scratch-build whatever ship class they desire then the more they would try to refit their ships. Also, being Chaos, one would expect a higher than usual number of refits anyway.
The last point where we seem to be at odds is one of balance. This is in reference to Cerberus costs. Just a note, I don't use the Smotherman formula. I think it fails to account for a number of things. OK, let's start by looking at the Slaughter, Carnage and Murder. All balanced ships yes? I don't see people taking all of one type often, and when they do they're not all that effective, or at least not any more effective than a mixed fleet. I myself like Slaughters, but prefer Carnages to Murders. Others prefer Murders. Now, is the Hades overpowered? I don't think so. Point for point they've got the greatest weight of fire at 60cm of any Chaos cruiser and yet people don't even max out on them. I've seen many a fleet full of just cruisers.
A Hades is simply a Murder with +2L@60cmLFR dorsal and given CB status for 30 pts. So, if you agree that the Murder, Carnage and Slaughter are not OP, and agree that a Hades is likewise not overpowered then you must agree that a heavy cruiser variant of either the Carnage or Slaughter given identical modifications would also not be overpowered.
So, a Slaughter variant CB with just the dorsal lances added would cost 195 pts. Now, you want to pump up the range on the WBs by 15cm and drop the range on the dorsal lances by 15cm. This is a practically identical trade-off value. At great than 30cm range those 2 lances are worth more than the 8WBs, but the extra range on the WBs gain some (very) limited utility due to the offside increase. So, at worst, that's +5 pts, putting us at 200 pts. Now, what else are you doing to it? Oh, yes, that's right, dropping its speed by 5cm and 1D6 when on AAF (so 5cm normal and 8.5cm off total AAF on average). That's got to be worth at least 5 pts. At the very least. So 195 pts is a conservative estimate. So when I said that 210 pts cost was being conservative I was being really conservative. Perhaps I should not ever be conservative, since people tend to cost things more than what I list it as being worth just on some sort of general principle. Cost creep.
I care what they think because their reasoning involves more than an arbitrary number. It was decided long ago that only Orks will have a full carrier for 185 points. That’s why the Tau Hero at 180 points only has 2 launch bays, why the Defiant only has 2 launch bays, and why the Devastation has a quirky weapons fit but is 190 points. 185 points was the arbitrary limit placed on point values for several scenarios to make sure only Orks could bring a real carrier to those scenarios. While it may not be very many, changing this “floor†point value would affect purpose-driven scenario point limits, it would affect point costs assigned to a number of cruisers (Lunar, Gothic, Carnage, Hero, etc. are all cost-assigned based on not having to face off against a real carrier in scenario-driven duels). In other words, a Chaos carrier will NEVER cost less than 190 points.
Can it be done and justified with fluff? Yes. Making these official canon in BFG is another matter entirely. I am not averse to the idea, as the Cerberus and Hecate indicate, but the HA’s aren’t going to go carte-blanche and say “yeah, sure†because the last thing we want is for a whole slew of semi-official Chaos HC’s out there based on misquoted intentions by the HA’s. It’s a lot easier to simply say they were stolen vessels, which makes perfect sense- most of the ships Chaos has at its disposal were ships either boarded and taken during various forays or just went renegade outright. Does this mean Chaos can’t use house ships? Of course not- The Nemesis fleet list is full of fun Chaos super-battleships, light cruisers, etc. However, we’re not making them official, and we’re not altering fluff to open the door for it.
Who says we disagree on the Cerberus cost? I KNOW it’s overpriced in the draft. I just believe 210 is too cheap for it- this ship has FAR more firepower over a Hades for just +10 points, regardless of whether or not it doesn’t have 60cm weapons.
Not exactly. The Murder is a reasonable cruiser so the Hades is a logical evolution. The Carnage and Slaughter are opposite extreme ends of the pendulum. The Carnage is the ONLY cruiser (not BC. HC, etc.) in the game with 60cm batteries, and its own fluff states how problematic these weapons were. For fluff, trying to graft dorsal lances on this boat would make an already difficult situation worse. From solely a rules standpoint, the HC Carnage becomes a 60cm monstrosity that in terms of 60cm firepower is almost as good as a Retribution battleship! The Slaughter is the exact opposite: no range at all, but up close this ship has absolutely brutal firepower, and its speed means it can get that firepower wherever it wants to. The excuse for this is the Scartix Coil, which is fine, but there aren’t “better†Scartix Coils out there so if we graft dorsal weapons/more crew onto a ship already cramped with its unusually dense weapon fit, it pays for it by shifting available power from its engines to its improved weapons.
Cost creep is a far more forgivable offense than profile creep, which is a much bigger problem today.
Forget about what this or that weapon is worth and look at how this ship behaves in play-test. At your proposed cost, for five extra points I have a ship that would smash an Acheron flat. This is why I hate the Smotherman formula. 60cm weapons shouldn't have a given point cost because 60cm weapons mean different things to different fleets. Chaos plays best as a beam-on fleet using maneuverability to hold open the range so an all-30cm ship should be cheap because it doesn't play to this. Conversely, a 60cm-battery Imperial cruiser should be much more expensive tha a corresponding Chaos cruiser because it gives the Imperials a sniper ability their fleet isn't really supposed to have. This is why the Overlord (and to a lesser extent the Tyrant) has a price outsize with the actual firepower it can deliver, which is why so many people consider it overpriced junk. It's all a matter of tactics and what a given player prefers.
Where am I going with all this? Remember that when the game was created, the Smotherman formula simply didn’t exist. Point costs were based not just on ship weapon fits but how the ship behaved in the fleet, and how the fleet behaves when using the ships in it. Keeping this in mind, assume for a second that a Slaughter is purposely underpriced because it doesn’t behave well with the rest of a Chaos fleet and work your point costs from there.
In both the Imperial and Chaos threads, it seems we would all universally prefer fixes to existing ships than having new ones.
As another murder/Dex user, I also agree, this is a ship that wouldn't make it into my fleet list if I can choose the dev over it.
So first things first, the Acheron was considered "advanced" technology a LONG time ago. In "present times", it's not so much advanced, but reliable enough for enough Warmasters that Chaos as a whole have built more of them.
The Inferno is either too strong, or the Dev is too weak. But a 10 WB broadside at 60cm or 2 Lances at 60 cm seems to be a no brainer? Make the WB's 45cm range (or decrease the strength some) and you now have to make an interesting choice between the Dev and the Inferno.
staggered fire. on vessels with large guns with high energy needs, you can't fire all the weapons without overloading your reactor. It's very similar to Tau railguns, they can't fire them all at the same time, and must 'cascade' their fire.
I never had a problem seeing it that way.. don't know why more people accept it.
The Hecate and Inferno i still resist. These ships are clashing in position with the Dev and Styx. I have the feeling that they were added on the basis of "make every bit combo count"
I just really don't understand the absent hardpoint on the Acheron as an 'advanced' ship. Definitly not for 190 points.
As to the Dev, I would MUCH rather see it increase in points, because I would happily pay it. It going to 45cm would make it much less synergistic in the dev-dev-styx carrier support squadrons that are so fun to run. 200 will be fine.
Cerberus is anti fun, because it looks nothing like the Slaughter. I agree, 30cm and 30cm weapons, or I'll have a darth against it like most folks do when lances in marine armies are mentioned.
Fluff can be awesome, but we need to be also concerned with the mechanics of the game. I don't see the need for another set of carriers when chaos has a great pair already (yes, i LIKE the styx, you can burn me at the stake if you like).
I don't know how i feel about the Cerberus being more expensive then a vanilla repulsive.
@ Horizon. Do you read anything in my posts besides 'Acheron'? My complaints are mainly aesthetic over balanced.No, I was triggered by "Acheron" and "Too weak (or was it not enough?) for a heavy cruiser". :)
And 'most firepower at 45cm' is a somewhat faulty statement. Yes, lances are generally worth 3 batteries, but the Acheron wont be putting many hits on anything, so its a deceptive title.
The Styx is fine the way it is at 275 points. It's combat niche is supposed to be as a flagship for small fleets that need defensive attack craft (where it can effectively fight a BB or 2 Cruisers 8 LB's). It's great for that role. If you want offensive carrier support, go with the 2 Dev's, but you'll pay for it with points.
I only own 1 carrier in my 3,500 Chaos collection and it's a Styx.
Sig, did you take into consideration I might only own one carrier because I played enough games using Devs and even Depoilers that I discovered they just aren't as good in my opinion?
275 is a fine price for what you get in the Styx. The ONLY Heavy or Grand cruiser with 6 Launch Bays and with 60cm LFR weapons to boot needs to be that expensive. Period. Being in line with the Retaliator is ok with me (personally, that ship needs to be beefed up or pointed down a bit).
Why would anyone assume this?
275 is a fine price for what you get in the Styx. The ONLY Heavy or Grand cruiser with 6 Launch Bays and with 60cm LFR weapons to boot needs to be that expensive. Period. Being in line with the Retaliator is ok with me (personally, that ship needs to be beefed up or pointed down a bit).
And yet direct comparisons with the alternative have proved you wrong.
275 is too expensive for the Styx even if one compares it to the Retaliator which is also sad to say, overpriced and undergunned. The Retaliator should be priced somewhere around 250-260. If it had 45 cm WBs 275 would be justifiable.
I can definitely feel a Warp Rift article coming up. Just because the HAs won't act doesn't mean the fixes can't be published.
Why would anyone assume this?
And that sir is also why it's completely illogical to eliminate somebody from the conversation outright purely because the carrier they have chosen for their fleet is the Styx and because of that, they don't personally own the others.
And yet direct comparisons with the alternative have proved you wrong.
Proved? The only thing I see is two different opinions with people such as Horizon supporting both arguments regarding which tactic is better. I stand by the fact the Styx should not be cheaper than the Retaliator when an argument can be made the Styx is already a better vessel.
Edit: Daemonships different prices for different fleets?
I wonder why. Seems the Tzeentchian ones stayed the same. I understand the daemonship ability is very powerful and may have warranted a price increase, I'm just curious why some stayed the same, or some went up more than others.
Wage of Sin - reduce AC to 4.
Vengeful Spirit - again, increase broadside WBs to at least 10, drop broadside launch bays to 2 each, increase prow launch bay to 4, delete prow lances.
Conqueror - don't give this ship 1.5 times Slaughter armament and picture it with 3 lance decks. Combined decks don't exist except by some peoples preference.
Inferno - delete it, you can't or won't fix it.
Remove the stupid Khorne/Slaanesh & Tzeentch/Nurgle rivalries. They make no sense. Tzeentch is the natural antithesis of Khorne. Tzeentch is the a schemer and lurker, never comes at anything head on and never stays and fights to the death. Always manipulating and never what he seems, master of deception and misdirection. On the other hand Khorne is a mere brute. These two powers are diametrically opposed. There is zero common ground. This is much much worse than Slaanesh, who do the same thing as Khorne, but for different reasons.
Nurgle is the natural antithesis of Slaanesh. Nurgle is death and decay, the end of all things, entropy and loss. Slaanesh is eternal youth and beauty, life in its prime. The vitality of Khorne's destructive urges is far more in keeping with Slaanesh than is the loss of feeling and life that is Nurgle.
Decay and disease are also forms of change so Nurgle is actually complimentary with Tzeentch, which is the lord of change. The only difference is that Nurgle's changes cannot invigorate.
Khorne's lust for battle and Slaanesh's lust for sensation (particularly that derived from battle) are complimentary. Khorne honours skilled warriors, Slaaneshi are graceful and skilled combatants. Khorne will fight to the death face to face with their enemies. Slaanesh will do the same, if for different reasons.
Likewise Nurgle are tough and staunch foes, hard to kill and implacable, so complimentary to Khorne. Slaanesh is about enticement and allure, and Tzeentch is about manipulation, so these two are also complimentary.
Let's think about it diagrammatically. Think of the major Chaos powers as representing a cardinal point on a compass. Khorne as the headstrong bull-necked leader would take up position at the front, so North best represents Khorne. Tzeentch as the manipulative, scheming and tricky Chaos power would take up position in the rear, so South for them. Slaanesh is the new Prince, the upstart and new dawn. He would take up position to the East. Nurgle is the inevitable end, entropy, loss and decay. He would represent dusk, and so take up position to the West.
Now draw perpendicular lines between the cardinal points, as you would a compass. The opposites are the oppositional powers. Now overlay another cross like the first, only this one rotated 45° so as to form the 8 pointed star of Chaos. These intermediary lines are representative of the alliance between near cardinal points (Khorne/Slaanesh, Khorne/Nurgle, Slaanesh/Tzeentch, Nurgle/Tzeentch) and where all the lines intersect, in the middle of the star, is Chaos undivided.
Sig, you may be right in concept about the Chaos Gods but GW always (since '80's) Khorne vs Slaanesh, Tzeentch vs Nurgle was added later as a rivalry.
In Fantasty : Slaves to Darkness, 80's Khorne vs Slaanesh.Sig, you may be right in concept about the Chaos Gods but GW always (since '80's) Khorne vs Slaanesh, Tzeentch vs Nurgle was added later as a rivalry.
Not in fantasy.
Hi,
City of Light
I am no such fan of 9 batteries (bfi/crippled), make them 8. Otherwise cool.
Wage of Sin
A Desolator with:
+ 6 launch bays
-15cm on the lances.
Surely this ship either: Drops speed or Drops AC to 4. I favour the latter. Fast Battleship Carrier.
Vengeful Spirit
I understand Sigoroth, the vessel is based upon the skewed Despoiler design. Check the thread in the discussion area were we are discussing ships. No one likes the Despoiler design in relation to the model design.
Now the Vengeful Spirit, being different then the Despoiler could be made like you propose. BUT ONLY if the standard Despoiler profile is adjusted.
Hecate
May be balanced (compared to Styx it trades 2 AC for 8wb) but I don't want another carrier in the Chaos fleet.
Cerberus
Since this is a Slaugher Battlecruiser it must have 30cm speed and 5d6 on AAF. All weapon ranges at 30cm. I mean, we have been very clear about that. :)
Inferno
Drop it, not needed. Even less nice then a Hecate.
Fleet Lists
With the little differences isn't there a way to create this through a single page? Think about the enviroment when printing on paper.
Major point A
Daemonships
I would rather have updated rules on them then a Hecate or Inferno.
Major Point B
Tweaking
I am still preferring a change of all the ships in the blue book, armada and exisiting pdf's then adding new cruisers for Chaos. Adding the themed battleships to the Terminus Est is good. But instead of Hecate I rather see the Styx fixed as it should (260), instead of an unneeded Inferno I rather see a fixed Devestation (45cm lances). All about priorities. Instead of the Vengeful Spirit (less-needed battleship) I would rather see the correct Despoiler profile.
All in good will. :)
Fly.. if your going to have the Hecate, you need to have the inferno, without both there is no precedent for the design to be in existence.. I just don't see a need for more carriers :P
To begin with, we were asked which ships we would like to propose for inclusion. Naturally people much preferred fixes to existing ships, and as these discussions weren't curtailed, particularly in the case of the Endeavour variants, and bearing in mind the tweaks to the main rules already in the FAQ, we had hope that there were fixes coming.
Now we're told GW won't countenance any but the slightest change, that's led to a lot of frustration.
We've also been told that the inclusion of new ships is the main hold up of the FAQ in general. Whilst new stuff is "Nice", "Nice" is a distant third place behind "Essential" FAQ rulings and "Important" rebalances.
If the "Nice" extras and fluff are holding up the "Essential" FAQ, then it should be put off until afterward - there's no good reason why the FAQ should be held up for this.
If the "Important" fixes endanger the entire project, then again, we'd far rather just the "Essential" FAQ were published. Once that has passed, the rebalances can be worked on without endangering the whole thing.
Hmm, point there on the HC of a nonexistant cruiser.
Love the idea of mark specific hulks! :D
But why -10 hits?
Except for the Tzeentch list allowing max leadership of 10 and having a single warp beast upgrade I see no reason for these fleet lists to exist.
I would suggest making all the VBBs except the generic one only available in the god specific lists (except with reserves). I'd also consider making some kind of special thing for each fleet. The warp beasts are a good start. Finally, I would actually list which cruisers, heavy cruisers, and grand cruisers are allowed in each fleet. I would not simply give them access to all of them. This could be used to help add flavor to the fleets by making them take ships that fit their theme. I would probably also put any new cruisers and heavy cruisers that make the cut in the god specific fleet lists and not simply add them to the 12th and 13th BC lists. They could still be taken as reserves in all the other lists that way.
The Cerberus is obviously making nobody happy. I'd suggest something like this. Take a standard Slaughter. Remove one lance from each side. Put the two lances on top (keeping the 30cm range). You end up with far more focusable firepower in front, a little more on a single broadside, and a little less on the offside. The new ship can keep pace with other Slaughters and will do a bit more damage on the way in but doesn't have more total firepower than the basic Slaughter. Charge 190 points and call it good.
The Inferno presents a serious design problem with the limitations that no Chaos carrier may cost less than 190 points and no Chaos cruiser may cost more than 190 points (the cost of the cheapest heavy cruiser). Since it has to cost the same as the Devastation it needs to fill a significantly different role. I would suggest up-gunning it and dropping all it's ranges down to 30cm, maybe 45cm on the prow.
I have another alternative in mind but I'd like a little more info on what would and wouldn't be allowed for a new ship. Is the 190 point minimum for any carrier or only carriers with at least 4 launch bays? Can a new cruiser require some conversion work if it only requires a single cruiser hull?
On page 17 it says the new cruisers can be used in "the Chaos fleet list." I'd specifically mention the 12th and 13th Black Crusade lists.
On page 20 under Using Chaos Space Hulks it says "it counts as a battleship against a Chaos fleet list" and "there is no minimum point requirement or ship prerequisites". Which is it?
Does the Tzeentch Warmaster intentionally give a max leadership of 10 while the others only give 9?
The four power specific fleet lists have many poorly written sections. By a strict reading the number of grand cruisers you can have is based solely off the number of cruisers and heavy cruisers from the 13th BC list but no grand cruisers are actually in these new lists and thus can only be taken as reserves. There is also no limit to the number of heavy cruisers taken unless they are from the 13th BC list. As such a fleet entirely of Hecates is possible. There is no need to limit the number of cruisers from the 13th BC list to 12 when the total number of cruisers cannot exceed 12.
Except for the Tzeentch list allowing max leadership of 10 and having a single warp beast upgrade I see no reason for these fleet lists to exist. You can't do anything with them you can't do with the 13th BC list with the new ships added. By choosing these lists you limit which marks you can take, how many daemonships you can take, and prevent yourself from using the Planet Killer (except as a reserve). Previously the Nurgle list allowed the Terminus Est which could only be taken in the 13th BC list through reserves. But now that you are allowed to take all the VBBs in any Chaos list what is the point?
I would suggest making all the VBBs except the generic one only available in the god specific lists (except with reserves). I'd also consider making some kind of special thing for each fleet. The warp beasts are a good start. Finally, I would actually list which cruisers, heavy cruisers, and grand cruisers are allowed in each fleet. I would not simply give them access to all of them. This could be used to help add flavor to the fleets by making them take ships that fit their theme. I would probably also put any new cruisers and heavy cruisers that make the cut in the god specific fleet lists and not simply add them to the 12th and 13th BC lists. They could still be taken as reserves in all the other lists that way.
As for the new cruisers...
The Hecate seems fine.
The Cerberus is obviously making nobody happy. I'd suggest something like this. Take a standard Slaughter. Remove one lance from each side. Put the two lances on top (keeping the 30cm range). You end up with far more focusable firepower in front, a little more on a single broadside, and a little less on the offside. The new ship can keep pace with other Slaughters and will do a bit more damage on the way in but doesn't have more total firepower than the basic Slaughter. Charge 190 points and call it good.
The Inferno presents a serious design problem with the limitations that no Chaos carrier may cost less than 190 points and no Chaos cruiser may cost more than 190 points (the cost of the cheapest heavy cruiser). Since it has to cost the same as the Devastation it needs to fill a significantly different role. I would suggest up-gunning it and dropping all it's ranges down to 30cm, maybe 45cm on the prow.
I have another alternative in mind but I'd like a little more info on what would and wouldn't be allowed for a new ship. Is the 190 point minimum for any carrier or only carriers with at least 4 launch bays? Can a new cruiser require some conversion work if it only requires a single cruiser hull?
Not a single one of those BBs have stats matching the model. All garbage.
The Hecate is garbage. Emasculator is a crap name.
Conqueror: Per rulebook and everyone except Sigoroth the broadsides are correct.
Awesome, love the flavor in the god-specific fleets :) Also, damn you for making my 7000 points of chaos now too small for all the variety ^^
Warp Beasts: Should be limited to one ship.
Strand of Fate: Cool!
Hives of Nurgle: Cool!
Ark of Pestilence: 25 points for a 1/6 chance to cause a fire critical, while boarding? For 25 points, just make it 'suffers automatic fire critical.'
I mean, it can still be repaired anyway, and probably still isnt worth 25 points. More like 10.
Berzerker Tide: Needs some clarification. If i understand it right, you must pass a second RO to get d3 markers, and either way can't use ordnance next turn?
Second Skorne Power: Needs one :)
Veil of Lust: I think it is both too cheap and too limitless. I don't like the idea of most of the abilities being in the whole fleet, makes em less special.
Siren's Summon: I'm going to save my horrified comments that this came from the group in charge of official documents for my favorite game :)
For one, yes, when you take the test is unclear, and what it effects. Secondly, do you realize that this, coupled with the leadership reduction from MoS itself, makes this perhaps the most broken thing in the game? I'm hoping I'm missing something here.
Edit: I wanted the Murder that way because it is kind of a clunky design next to the Carnage, and with L/R/F lances it could bring equal firepower to a broadside, no more.
Khorne HATES magic and all things that don't involve a knife-fight in a phone booth.
Hi LastSpartacus! Excellent feedback! Not to worry, this project is still a work in progress and has a little while before its stamped "Final." Not everything is even fully play-tested yet so some things here will likely be altered or maybe changed or removed outright. Feedback like yours is EXACTLY why we posted it while still only half-baked.And its appreciated. I'm still miffed after the entire Privateer Press field test, they went and made rules that were completely different to anything that had been tested or advised. :) Good to see the innards.
BTW- I will say this for a fast-pass. Khorne HATES magic and all things that don't involve a knife-fight in a phone booth. It is intentional that Khorne only gets one Force of Chaos. However, as balance its the only flavored fleet that gets a Space Hulk.Hmm, true enough.
If your looking for wooge to give the knornate ship, give them a bonus to critical damage as result of a boarding action. There, problem solved.
Nate,
This is all in reference to the 2.4 version of the Powers of Chaos.
The Siren's Summon ability in the Slaanesh fleet seems really powerful. It's also poorly worded. It doesn't say exactly when the enemy ships take the test. It also seems able to prevent bracing for impact and repairing criticals. If you want to keep it fairly powerful I'd make it prevent ships from ramming, boarding, shooting, or launching ordinance rather than only allowing movement. This should keep the enemy from taking offensive action but not lead to weird arguments over exactly what else the ship can and cannot do. Even then I think it'll be too powerful once ships get into melee range. I'd limit it's effect to only one enemy per turn. If you want to have it disable multiple enemies at a time i would only have it prevent the ships from going on special orders (other than brace).
Most of the other fleet powers seem reasonable except for maybe the Warp Beasts in the Tzeentch list. Giving that to a couple ships and using them both at once will pretty much kill any cruiser outright or cripple a battleship all in one go.
I see the Emasculator has been dubbed Inferno. I remember you mentioning that the Emasculator was chosen because it had gone through plenty of playtesting over the years. The problem I see here is that the ship you have listed is not the Emasculator I'm familiar with. The original source was BFG Magazine #1 and I don't ever remember it getting an update. The new ship looks fine because it's just pulling the Murder variant on a Carnage but it's strange to just sort of give it hand-wave approval because it was tested previously when it's not the ship that was tested (as far as I know).
Why does the Vengeful Spirit cost more than a standard Despoiler? Am I missing something? One last thing, what's with the weird line drawing of the City of Light? Why the broadside lance?
Awesome, love the flavor in the god-specific fleets :) Also, damn you for making my 7000 points of chaos now too small for all the variety ^^
Warp Beasts: Should be limited to one ship.
Strand of Fate: Cool!
Hives of Nurgle: Cool!
Ark of Pestilence: 25 points for a 1/6 chance to cause a fire critical, while boarding? For 25 points, just make it 'suffers automatic fire critical.'
I mean, it can still be repaired anyway, and probably still isnt worth 25 points. More like 10.
Berzerker Tide: Needs some clarification. If i understand it right, you must pass a second RO to get d3 markers, and either way can't use ordnance next turn?
Second Skorne Power: Needs one :)
Veil of Lust: I think it is both too cheap and too limitless. I don't like the idea of most of the abilities being in the whole fleet, makes em less special.
Siren's Summon: I'm going to save my horrified comments that this came from the group in charge of official documents for my favorite game :)
For one, yes, when you take the test is unclear, and what it effects. Secondly, do you realize that this, coupled with the leadership reduction from MoS itself, makes this perhaps the most broken thing in the game? I'm hoping I'm missing something here.
Edit: I wanted the Murder that way because it is kind of a clunky design next to the Carnage, and with L/R/F lances it could bring equal firepower to a broadside, no more.
The Siren's Summon ability in the Slaanesh fleet seems really powerful. It's also poorly worded. It doesn't say exactly when the enemy ships take the test. It also seems able to prevent bracing for impact and repairing criticals. If you want to keep it fairly powerful I'd make it prevent ships from ramming, boarding, shooting, or launching ordinance rather than only allowing movement. This should keep the enemy from taking offensive action but not lead to weird arguments over exactly what else the ship can and cannot do. Even then I think it'll be too powerful once ships get into melee range. I'd limit it's effect to only one enemy per turn. If you want to have it disable multiple enemies at a time i would only have it prevent the ships from going on special orders (other than brace).
The intent of Siren’s Summon is that it be scary so we can limit this and make it more expensive (say no more than two ships) rather than dumb this down. This will also be clarified to indicate exactly when the test happens, which will only be for ships that start their movement within 15cm of the ship.
Attack craft carriers may launch up to D3 more attack craft markers of any type if less than 20cm of their target. If they do so, they must Reload Ordnance and not launch in the next turn.
Glad you like it. The intent of letting two ships have Warp Beasts was to make Chaos players decide between having less ships that are more shiny, or more ships with less toys attached.
[\quote]
After thinking about it, you're right. 2 is ok, since it does indeed cost more than a nova, and its once per game. Tzeentch in the fluff tends to have the most 'eggs in a basket' so to speak, anyway. Any chance on getting the MoT cheapened? Its for one ship and costs the same as a fleet reroll.QuoteThis ended up getting changed a bit. The price dropped a little bit, and now the additional Fire crit is automatic. This play-tested well- two opponents stayed away from it completely to keep it from happening and concentrated their firepower to kill it before it got even close. In the end, we had to play a one-off battle and force a boarding action just to prove this thing didn’t suddenly become invincible.Glad its automatic. But really, is it that strong a psycological effect, one fire crit on top of everything else that can happen in a boarding option?
It’s a gimmick but not really potent- the genius of it is the distraction it poses to the opponent. That’s the same reason why I love Kroot Warspheres. People are so afraid of getting boarded by them, they will pour whole fleets of firepower into them until they die. I have never had a Warsphere survive a battle I put it in, but I have never lost a battle with a fleet that had a Warsphere.
Trying to get away from something that might not hurt you at all (repair)? Seems like a 10 pointer to me, for 20 points, 2 fire criticals would be good. Better that way actually, its actually more scary, and much less odds of repairing it.QuoteBezerker Tide is fixed to apply to all Khorne ships, not just carriers. The rule is also more clear and simple.Still a bit unclear to me. How many ships can take it, and is it free? Is it a part of the MoK, base? If a ship with this ability boards, it has to use the ability, and can't BFI or anything else for a turn? If it launches D3 AC, it must test an additional RO to do so?QuoteVeil of Lust is now more expensive, but anyone can still buy it. “Really special†is saved for Siren’s Summon. Siren’s Summon was broken but is now fixed. It’ still potent, but the test is now clarified, it is more expensive, and only two ships can take it.Veil seems good now. My only real exception is the amazing power for the points that Siren's Summon is.
Tzeentch
Silver Towers
points 405
defence/12
speed: special
turns: special
shields 4
armour 6+
turrets 4
prow lance @ 60cm str.D3 - Allround
dorsal lance @ 60cm str.D3 - Allround
port battery @ 60cm str.2D6+1 - Allround
starboard battery @ 60cm str.2D6+1 - Allround
no CTNH
may teleport up to to 3d6cm away in the movement phase. 6d6cm on AAF. Lock on allowed.it. Old Warp Rift's had Chaos specific lists.
Well, I would like to know what model we are supposed to use to represent these magical powers. Since the HA is obsessed with WYSWYG at the moment.
For Warp Beasts get a pack of Warmaster Screamers of Tzeentch. Pin some wires into a few and glue them flying around the ship. I've already got some of these I intend to mix in with my attack craft for purely cosmetic reasons.
Will not fly with me.Fair enough. I was looking at the Desolators' profile for a points comparision when I wrote the 25cm speed. I don't mind the dropping of the speed down to 20cm to match the other GC of Chaos. As for fire power, 3 Carnages will out match 2 Abyssals using 60cm range and the targeting system for 540 points vrs the 600 points. So I don't see its fire power being too much of an issue but lets knock the 60cm P/S WB down to 8 from 10 . Number of shots on a closing cap ship from two Abyssals vrs three Carnage is.....
Too fast for a grand cruiser and too havely armed.
How about a generic warp beast stat, with upgrades for each power?
Something else neat would be some kind of warp entities that actually function as ships. A single statline could be made with a slight tweak for each Chaos power.
I was just reiterating your statement, for consideration. Yes, all credit to the wise-minded Masque! :p
| Warp Spawn | 100 Points | ||||
| Type/Hits: Cruiser/4 | Speed: 20cm | Turns: 90º | Shields: 0 | Armour: 5+ | Turrets: 0 |
| Weapon Batteries | Range: 30cm | FP: 8 | Front |
| Daemonic: | Warp Spawn may not be upgraded to Daemonships as they have their own special rules. Warp Spawn recieve a 4+ save as if Braced for Impact but may still use other special orders. |
| Uncontrolled: | Fleet Commander re-rolls may not be used for Warp Spawn but if a Warp Spawn fails a command check other ships in the fleet may still attempt to go on special orders though other Warp Spawn may not. Warp Spawn may not be squadroned with non Warp Spawn. |
| Crewless: | Warp Spawn may not embark a Fleet Commander, Chaos Lord, or Chaos Space Marines. Warp Spawn may not board or conduct hit and run attacks but are also unable to be boarded or targetted by hit and run attacks. |
| Living Aether: | When a Warp Spawn suffers a critical hit do not roll on the critical hit chart. Instead the Warp Spawn takes an extra point of damage. When a Warp Spawn is destroyed do not roll on the catastrophic damage chart. Instead roll a D6. If a 1-5 is rolled the Warp Spawn simply fades from existence but on a 6 its death throws tear a hole in reality. Place a 5cm by 5cm Warp Rift where the Warp Spawn was destroyed. |
| Chaos Alignment: | Each Warp Spawn may be aligned with a single Chaos power for the points cost indicated below. |
| Khorne | 35 Points | An Iron Claw improves its armour to 6+ and exchanges its weapon batteries for firepower 6 heavy gunz with 30cm range and massive claws. |
| Nurgle | 30 Points | A Plague Swarm improves its hits to 6 and exchanges its weapon batteries for firepower 8 pyro-acid batteries with 30cm range. A Plague Swarm automatically passes the leadership test to navigate an asteroid field and is not slowed by blast markers. Lances fired at a Plague Swarm will only hit on a 5+. |
| Slaanesh | 35 Points | A Singing Eel exchanges its weapon batteries with strength 2 gauss particle whips with 15cm range. Any ship wishing to fire at a Singing Eel must pass a leadership test even if it is the closest target. A Singing Eel counts as having as many turrets as there are attack craft in any wave that attacks it even when it is crippled. |
| Tzeentch | 40 Points | A Great Ray exchanges its weapon batteries with a star pulse generator and 2 launch bays with Screamers. Screamers count as Eagle Bombers. A Great Ray never needs to reload ordnance before launching more Screamers. |
Fair enough. I was looking at the Desolators' profile for a points comparision when I wrote the 25cm speed. I don't mind the dropping of the speed down to 20cm to match the other GC of Chaos. As for fire power, 3 Carnages will out match 2 Abyssals using 60cm range and the targeting system for 540 points vrs the 600 points. So I don't see its fire power being too much of an issue but lets knock the 60cm P/S WB down to 8 from 10 . Number of shots on a closing cap ship from two Abyssals vrs three Carnage is.....
11 dice vs 15 dice at 60cm
31 dice vs 23 dice at 45cm
31 dice vs 34 dice at 30cm
40 dice vs 43 dice at 15cm
Please take into account the extra hits the carnages have and the extra sheilds over the three ships. Also note the effect brace for impact and cripples will have on this Abyssal ships.
It's not overpowered per point, it's overpowered per hull. The Avenger and Vengeance manage no more than FP32 total. Even with the 2pt reduction, this GC has FP38, a whole extra 18%.
To answer an earlier query by Nate, L/R/F Murder lances would be great. You said 'wow, thats alot of focused firepower' but its exactly the same focused firepower as a Carnage.
So the Slaaneshy upgrades are kosher with everyone?
So the Slaaneshy upgrades are kosher with everyone?
I like me my Executioner demonship :)
Remember when I was saying the Murder's prow should be L/R/F and people were all like 'whoa thats too powerful!'
I just realized that the Inferno is exactly the same thing. L/R/F Murders!
Care to jump on vassal? :) Im on right now.
Sig, the point still stands that at 45 and below it is almost the exact same as a l.r.f murder.
3 batteries equal 1 lance. Batteries are valued thus because they are worse at range and get better than lances as you close.
If you are talking about worth purely at 60cm, in a vacuum, then str2 lances are worth str7 or str8 batteries, due to column shift.
Piddly difference. If the Murder jumped to 180, id be all for it. Then it would be right there with the lunar. As it is, the Inferno is now probably our 'template' cruiser, as it seems to be the most balanced.
Lol, yeah you're right. I meant 'murder based' fleet.
I'm just saying that in the scope of 'flawed ships' the murder is more viable as the Devestation has its range reduced. So the extremely long ranged chaos list is harder to build. Also, it actually makes the Styx much more useful, as if you wanted to build the long ranged chaos list, then you would have to take it instead of a devestation.
Ah brilliance that I didn't even realize at the time :)
Le sigh. I did. This is why I argued that reducing the range on the Dev is well and truly sufficient; no need for a price hike too.
Sig, i LIKE my long range support carrier... :(
Sig, i LIKE my long range support carrier... :(
I have seen people make extremely effective fleets based solely around the styx. Risky, but extremely beaty fleets none the less. It REALLY is a matter of preference at this point.
Chaos won't get LCs. Not with the Slaughter around.
I keep hoping they'll throw it out. Everyone insists it's better then a CL but frankly, it's more of an anomaly then a Hades in a Gothic list. Seriously, if none have been built since the 32nd Millenium due to a special part that was only built one place, even if the ships have not be destroyed through attrition, parts wear out. I understand the warp covers many sins, but this would be an epic stretch even for the Dark Gods.
Sometimes I wonder in which 40k universe BaronI resides...
They are still with the imperium?
Chaos ships are the warships of the great crusade, light cruisers are mostly used as scouts or escorts for convoys.
Also, Chaos has plenty of excommunicate forgeworlds they can use to reconstruct the skartix engine.
No, you mistake the fluff of the Slaughter. The Dutiful destroyed the forgeworld where the Scartix Coil design was kept. It doesn't mean there was only no other Slaughters built unlike the Acheron's fluff where it says only one as far as records show. A lot of AM also turned renegade during the Heresy and Chaos has their own forgeworlds in and around the Eye of Terror. More recent fluff however implies that more Acheron's were built in the Eye of Terror. Aside from which the Planet Killer was built in the Eye. Parts also aren't that much of a problem when you have supernatural forces aiding you in the ship's operation.
Also, Chaos has plenty of excommunicate forgeworlds they can use to reconstruct the skartix engine.
If by flattening a single forgeworld they destroyed the Imperium's ability to produce these, then this would indicate that only this forgeworld produced Slaughters. Using the dates given and the rate of production of the Murder class hull as a yardstick, you have a maximum of 20 of them or so having been built, assuming that that Forgeworld did nothing but produce Slaughters the entire time.
As far as using the warp as an excuse: why not simply build 1,000 ships for every one that the Imperium has and just win? It would be about as easy, since the warp is an ocean of infinite power.
Yeah. For the Imperium. So after the folks took the Scartix Coil design and the Dutiful blew up the planet, Chaos can now take that design, go into the Eye and start building them.
BaronI, I've actually been playing through a game of RT as a bunch of explorators, and we have been getting deep into the fluff about how the Admech stores information.
Basically every forgeworld has an altar that contains all the technological information that they produce there, and potentially more. Generally these aren't copied, instead Transmat (basically a servitor astropath) requisition the information from another forgeworlds altar if they need it there.
It isn't unreasonable to destroy a wealth of knowledge just by obliterating one altar. Ryza is the only planet that still knows how to make plasma weaponry, this doesn't mean that any other forge world couldn't get the info to. It's just that they wouldn't normally. Pretty easy to forget records over thousands of years, especially if you aren't using them.
WD 178 has the fluff on Transmats. All have a direct connection to the stone thing. They aren't astropaths anymore, presumably they talk in binary. Which would work fine.
Mechanicus also talks about them and the Altar.
Doesn't say they took the design. Just says that the commander went rogue and trashed the planet. And, how would an IN commander get his hands on the data anyway?
Yep, doesn't say but it's not far fetched either. And another explanation might be that the AM in the Eye reverse designed the engines. Hey if they can build Acherons, I'm sure they can build Slaughters.
CLs are functionally useless for Chaos. Chaos captains are often lone wolves and also megalomaniacs. It behoves them to have a shp of greater tonnage than the what the IN could use to catch you. It also suits the psychology of a power hungry rogue or Chaos captain to take larger ships.
Light cruisers would not appeal to a captain, would provide little utility to a warfleet and is too much on even terms with the enemy as a raider. If you had the choice between a Dauntless or a Slaughter to captain which would you choose? If you said 'Dauntless' you wouldn't be captaining it for long. ::)
That's always possible, but frankly I suspect that most of thier engineering was given over to the Planet Killer.
That's always possible, but frankly I suspect that most of thier engineering was given over to the Planet Killer.
There's only 1 PK and its finished. I see no problems with them building other ships. Like the Acherons and Slaughters.
Yeah, but given the time compression, it's completion would have been less the two years ago. I'm sure they're hot on new ship projects now, but there would no have been enough time to have completed anything. In fluff the number one complaint among the saner chaos forces is that they're loosing men and material faster then they can replace it. Many chaos forces have taken to looting dead loyalists for equipment out of need. If the Dark Mechanicus is having a difficult time meeting the need for power armor components and weapons, how much more so ships which take millions of times more resources?
Yeah, but given the time compression, it's completion would have been less the two years ago. I'm sure they're hot on new ship projects now, but there would no have been enough time to have completed anything. In fluff the number one complaint among the saner chaos forces is that they're loosing men and material faster then they can replace it. Many chaos forces have taken to looting dead loyalists for equipment out of need. If the Dark Mechanicus is having a difficult time meeting the need for power armor components and weapons, how much more so ships which take millions of times more resources?
Huh? Why would it be only 2 years ago? Again you underestimate the aid of Chaos and the time compression. It would take more time than a typical battleship but it can be done. While we do not know the construction that went into the PK, even doubling the time it takes for a battleship to be built on a continuous basis they would have finished it in a century at most two esp since I don't think Abaddon would be happy if he feels the engineers are slowing down the important project. Certainly more than 2 centuries would have passed from the time of the Heresy by now. Regardless though, the point is, they can build the Slaughters and the other classes which is the point of contention.
Well, we all know the Warp is a special land of magic and fairies... where ships simply come into being.
On a more serious note, who really cares if there is a chaos cl. It would be crap compared to the slaughter, and people who want them so desperately can quit whining.
Because fluff says about two centuries have elapsed in the Eye, approx, while ten thousand years have rolled by in the materium. Which means that the Planet Killer was actually built much more swiftly then most battleships.
Because fluff says about two centuries have elapsed in the Eye, approx, while ten thousand years have rolled by in the materium. Which means that the Planet Killer was actually built much more swiftly then most battleships.
Is there a problem with a battleship being built faster than most battleships? You have some pretty unforgivable and ruthless masters in the Eye who would accept no reason for any delays and would most likely just kill the messenger as well as those responsible for the delay and whose minions would push the slaves until their hands are bare to the bones already, literally and figuratively and still demand more performance out of the slaves and get it.You have traitor AM which are still in their prime and still have the knowledge to build ships efficiently and chaos beings and powers which can aid them further. The AM also probably have their equipment to build the ships that is better technology wise than the ones the non-traitor AMs have. I'm not going to be surprised if the PK is built way before record time.
That wasn't the point: It was that you can't build one of the largest, most powerful ships ever in record time for a ship of it's class AND simultaneously roll out dozens of cruisers you had to reverse engineer. While chaos is badassed,it's not without limits. Otherwise it would have won already.
And why not? Do you know the construction details inside the Eye? 2 centuries is a lot of years assuming that the time passed in the Eye is true. Aside from which, while I think some ships might have been reverse engineered, who's to say some of the actual engineers involved in the Scartix Coil engine and Acheron class development did not turn traitor? At which point, reverse engineering need not be done because they would have firsthand knowledge. You can have many fluff reasons to justify how one can roll out the PK as well as a couple of Acherons and Slaughters.
Again, because resources are not available. Chaos marines complain that they don't have access to basic supplies and equipment maintenance. A great deal of the raiding that goes on is to seize basic materials.
To make a comparison: if you can't keep up with demand for bullets and small arms, you're not going to have the resources necessary for large scale warship construction. Squeezing out one PK and two or three of each of the other classes is possible, but frankly it's a better use of resources to maintain and upgun the (if the description of Horus' fleet in some of the HH books is correct) hundreds of CL's they would have had from the Great Crusade, never mind the ones that have joined since.
Again, because resources are not available. Chaos marines complain that they don't have access to basic supplies and equipment maintenance. A great deal of the raiding that goes on is to seize basic materials.
To make a comparison: if you can't keep up with demand for bullets and small arms, you're not going to have the resources necessary for large scale warship construction. Squeezing out one PK and two or three of each of the other classes is possible, but frankly it's a better use of resources to maintain and upgun the (if the description of Horus' fleet in some of the HH books is correct) hundreds of CL's they would have had from the Great Crusade, never mind the ones that have joined since.
But the fact is, Acherons, note the "s", have been built as well as the PK. If the PK can be built and that one according to you which I agree with, eats up a lot of resource, that means they do have the resources. I've never seen much fluff that Chaos does not have access to basic supplies and equipment maintenance. They've had 13 Black Crusades which I assume would eat up a lot of material per Crusade. While they have not really won, that's a lot of Crusades in which they have spent bullets and small arms.
Um, does all this about Slaughters and Scartix coils and "how come I can't have Chaos CL's?" mean the Chaos list is good to go?