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Author Topic: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?  (Read 5419 times)

Offline blacksmith

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Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« on: May 15, 2010, 10:26:06 AM »
My apologies if this has been discussed before.
I've always thought that Warmaster lacks the possibility to properly harass heavy units on their flanks because everybody moves so much. Then I read the special rules from Warmaster Ancient of skirmish and wondered why not.
Why not use those special rules for Warmaster? For example: orcs as warband, Chaos Knights slow, spear High Elves with shieldwall, or goblin wolf riders as skirmish.
I'm going to try it but before I'd like to know if anyone has done it before.
Cheers,

Offline jchaos79

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 07:22:03 PM »
The idea sounds very very good, but it will make a problem to adjust the cost points of the units.

I look forward also for an expert/veteran player answer of this thread.

Offline Carrington

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2010, 07:46:25 PM »
I think the better bet is to build new Fantasy army lists for Warmaster Ancients,(WMA) and perhaps graft on the old Warmaster rules for magic, machines, and flyers.

The thing is that Warmaster Ancients has some sharp differences with Warmaster, mainly focused on charge positioning, combat length, and pursuit.  All of these differences have (presumably) been tested with the WMA special abilities.

As such, it's probably best to rebuild a fantasy army list for WMA -- in the end, it's just another army list -- rather than trying to excise and graft rules from WMA to WM

Offline Botjer

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2010, 09:51:44 AM »
Has anyone done this?
what about monster rules? wouldnt you need to "graft" some special rules from WM into WMA?

Offline David Wasilewski

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2010, 08:40:13 PM »
As someone who used to tinker with rules a lot but who now tends to stick to the official rules:

You can change something quite minor and it makes sense for the context of the situation
3 games down the line you find out there is some unexpected consequence that appears or is min/maxed by an opponent
The group has to change the rules again to make up for the unexpected consequence  - repeat, repeat

e.g. The suggested ammendment makes sense but then is cavalry too expensive? Are all infantry armies like dwarves/skaven given an unfair advantage over armies like the Bretonnians?

Another alternative is to play Warmaster Ancients rules and army lists but to use fantasy figures with a "counts as" representation?

Just how I'd prefer to do it if our group started to tinker too much with the rules.....

Dave

Offline Botjer

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2010, 10:26:00 PM »
gametesting and revision is something you have to include in the process, yes.

Offline Carrington

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 02:38:24 PM »
As someone who used to tinker with rules a lot but who now tends to stick to the official rules:

You can change something quite minor and it makes sense for the context of the situation
3 games down the line you find out there is some unexpected consequence that appears or is min/maxed by an opponent
The group has to change the rules again to make up for the unexpected consequence  - repeat, repeat

e.g. The suggested ammendment makes sense but then is cavalry too expensive? Are all infantry armies like dwarves/skaven given an unfair advantage over armies like the Bretonnians?

Another alternative is to play Warmaster Ancients rules and army lists but to use fantasy figures with a "counts as" representation?

Just how I'd prefer to do it if our group started to tinker too much with the rules.....

Dave

You're right about the testing and the unpredictability.  And I'd tend to believe that WMA is a tested and proven system.  As such, it would make most sense to -- slowly -- try bolting on small sections of WMF rules: magic, monsters, and machines, to the WMA/WMM (Medieval) lists to see what begins breaking.  

Probably also, the way to go would be to tinker with WMA/WMM lists that look similar to make them into fantasy lists rather than trying to re-cost and port the fantasy lists wholesale.

Just thinking about it, though, I'd tend to guess that re-balancing WMF lists would involve dropping the cost of monsters and units with high numbers of attack dice, though it is interesting that shock cavalry's price goes up in WMA. (My instinct is that WMA's skirmishers and limited combat rounds would tend to provide tools to make the marquee, high attack value units less effective, though, ironically, flyers might be more effective.

... thinking about it, the Sauron/Middle Earth lists might be the easiest ones to find analogous lists in WMA, basically because they tend to be a bit less marked by big 'uns. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 02:46:14 PM by Carrington »

Offline Botjer

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 04:54:35 PM »
I would make the lists that i would call the average lists firsts.

like empire, they arnt bad at anything and arnt great at anything, they are average.

you look at an army list in WMM that fits how empire is played, tweak it, and then you "set it in stone".

Now you have something to revolve around.

next you go out on a tangent, you take a list that is the extremest in one aspect.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, that woodelven gladeguard is the most allround powerful ranged unit in the game. By settings its rules we now have an average and a maximum we can now fit units in between those two.

we also get a unit that is the worst ranged unit (that still has ranged weaponry), and set it as minimum.

we do this with all aspects of the game and using warmaster FB as a loose guide when it comes to abilities and costs.

now we flesh out the army lists, those things not present in WMM are added as is in WMFB and noted that their abilities and value are to be playtested.

we now get a first run of armylists, now start the playtesting.

One thing that could be done is to set the rule that any WMM army should be able to face any of the new armies in a balanced game...

During playtesting notes are taken on how things perform, players are to cheat and break the system as much as possible to find loopholes and broken rules.

you slowly patch the game up and try to keep the patching simple.

also, when patching, do minimal change. take the way you want to change something, and then cut that change down to half.

and then hopefully in the end you have a balanced game.

Offline vincent

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 05:09:39 PM »
In France a lot of players have been playing with WMA rules (with magic+flyers+monsters+etc. addon) and unmodified WM armies for more than 2 years.
It works very well and we feel like it is a big improvment of the game.
We don't use skirmish rules though and "light" troops still have a hard time to do any kind of skirmishing; same as with WM...

Several of us have been playing with the idea to add skirmishers to WMF. But you have the be careful:
1/ Not all WM armies have skirmishers; so porting WMA skirmishers without modification will be an instant-win or instant-loose for some match-up.
2/ Choc skirmishers are a real pain so skirmishing wolf riders, dark raiders and the like will be either very expensive of too much efficient. Except if you find a new rule (that we failed to find so far).
3/ This could lead to re-evaluating most troop cost (as per the heavy knigh that costs 110pts in WM and 135 in WMM); and this IS a cyclopean task...

My advice:
Start playing with WMA rules and WM lists. Even without skirmisher this improves the play so much that you could loose any need to add skirmisher.

Offline Carrington

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2010, 06:48:03 PM »
Vincent, thanks for the insight, makes a lot of sense.

So the WMF heavy cav remains shock cav costed at 110?


Offline Botjer

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 06:57:32 PM »
he means they play with the armylists as they are

they only use WMM rules

no changes to any costs

Offline vincent

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 07:35:40 PM »
Correct.
If you change the heavy cav cost, then you'll have to review and adapt all costs to be fair.

Offline Botjer

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 07:45:22 PM »
Would be fun to add fantasy options to the historical lists :P

A saxon army with the general on a griffon and a giant?

Or a viking army with a elves.

Swiss army with a unit of dwarves?

:P

Offline Aquahog

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2010, 07:33:40 AM »
The swiss make me think more of gnomes. Tinkering with their little mechanical contraptions. ^^

The list goes on; Romans with giant wolves, Greeks with centaurs, Egyptians with sphinxes, French with Marianne.. oh right.

Offline Botjer

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Re: Using WA special rules with Warmaster?
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 11:13:58 AM »
would be fun wouldnt it? :P

Christian armies would be against fairy-things and be more like the old bretonnians using an array of characters, inquisitors, paladins, priests, bishops, cardinals, jesuits, ordermembers.

all characters dont need to be able to give orders, and some might even be forced to be attached to a selected unit.

and if we have Christians... We GOT to have Satanists :P a choice christians army can make, either or :P

Pagans have fantasy mythological things
Christians have a slew of characters
Satanist have witches and demons and stuff :P