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Author Topic: Couple interesting questions  (Read 20011 times)

Offline M.T.

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2010, 07:25:07 AM »
Quote from: Nazroth
Loot and Pillage:
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'the defending player is fighting to defend his friends and home territory so he doesn't HAVE TO make bottle tests and can't BOTTLE OUT volountairily.'
The Hit:
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'The defending player is very much fighting for his life so he WILL NOT BOTTLE OUT VOLOUNTAIRILY OR OTHERWISE.

How to interprete this? Is there possibility that deffender actually CAN take a BOTTLE TEST, and if it is failed by a failed roll the gang would flee?
"Doesn't have to" doesn't mean "isn't allowed" and so in "Loot and Pillage" scenario the defender can take a Bottle Test, but he's bound by its result and cannot bottle out voluntarily.
"The Hit" scenario doesn't allow Bottle Tests for defender. And it doesn't allow bottling out voluntarily either.
Quote from: Nazroth
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During the
enemy’s turn the model may shoot at any target as it presents itself at any time. For example, the model could shoot before the target moves, after it has completed its move, or actually while the target is moving. Overwatch is obviously very useful for shooting at enemy models as they dash from cover to cover or as they peek out of hiding to shoot.
When actually a ganger on overwatch can take chis chance and shoot? 'as it presents itself' so can a ganger shoot at the start of the enemys turn, before, or after an enemy declares a shoot? Or for example at the beggining of my turn, when my wyrds wall of flame dissipates - could my opponent use his overwatch to shoot at appearing targets?
Shooting from Overwatch is allowed in all those situations. Note that shooting from Overwatch at hidden models that want to shoot is described in FAQ.
Quote from: Nazroth
Overwatch 2
Can you pivot a ganger and go into owerwatch?
FAQ:
Quote
Q: Can my fighter spin to any facing and still go into overwatch or do I have to spend a turn spinning first?
A: Although the ORB states that a fighter may do nothing in the turn that they go into overwatch, spinning is not defined as an action. So, you may 'spin' your fighter at the start of his turn to face any direction he wants without being classed as moving prior to going into overwatch.
Quote from: Nazroth
Inside Information.
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An insider informant offers to sell
you vital information for 10 credits. If you pay the man his credits the next time you play a game you may choose the scenario instead of rolling on the Scenario table.
Can you choose the scenario even if that NOT YOU should roll for the scenario tabble? (becouse you have the lower rating) ?
You choose the scenario INSTEAD OF rolling, so you have to be allowed to roll on the table. If you don't roll, you don't choose.
Quote from: Nazroth
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The following chart is used to determine what rare trade items are offered for sale to the gang leader. D3 items are offered automatically and a further +1 for each ganger sent to search them out. The prices of rare items are given on the main trade charts.
Can a Leader of an outlawed gang go forage? Does the market still offeres him D3 items? It looks like auto offering for me.
From the rules of foraging in "Dead and Alive!" article
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Juves, gangers, heavies and even leaders can all forage, though if they forage they can't perform any special tasks, such as visiting the Outlaw trading post or working the gang's territory.
So the answer for both questions is: No.
Quote from: Nazroth
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If a gang has an auto-repairer it can be used in between fights to check out the gang’s weapons. The gang must include a heavy to do this and you must assign a fit ganger to help him. The ganger cannot collect income from territories or search for rare trade goods if he is helping the heavy.
Auto repairer states that it requires a ganger to be used, but does it requires a heavy too? Can an outlawed heavy forage and still participate in auto reparing?
In accordance with the quote above, a heavy is doing a special task and therefore can't forage if he's operating an auto-repairer. The ganger that helps him can't forage either.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 07:32:58 AM by M.T. »

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 08:20:53 AM »
THX dude - a lot of writing:) I dont know how'd we missed FAQ answers for some of those questions.

How about two infiltration questions?


Offline M.T.

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 08:55:38 PM »
I know that's a lot of writing - so much that I've made a mistake. It should read:
Quote
Quote from: Nazroth
Quote
The following chart is used to determine what rare trade items are offered for sale to the gang leader. D3 items are offered automatically and a further +1 for each ganger sent to search them out. The prices of rare items are given on the main trade charts.
Can a Leader of an outlawed gang go forage? Does the market still offeres him D3 items? It looks like auto offering for me.
From the rules of foraging in "Dead and Alive!" article
Quote
Juves, gangers, heavies and even leaders can all forage, though if they forage they can't perform any special tasks, such as visiting the Outlaw trading post or working the gang's territory.
So a leader can forage, but he can't be offered d3 items.
Do you want information about infiltrating in the scenarios from LRB and "Dead and Alive!" article?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 06:50:33 PM by M.T. »

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 11:44:44 PM »
Yes please.

And two more questions:

Which Gangs start their game as outlawed? Is redemption outlawed from the start?

In Answer Mod FAQ - 2-26-09 there are two questions about charging enemy, that is not in our LoS. There are two different answers. One that you can do that, and another that it is impossible. which one is true?
Can you charge an enemy, that you cannot see?

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2010, 06:15:17 PM »
CAPTURED/RESCUE MISSION: If captured fighter was freed in rescue scenario, but didn't make it to attackers edge before the bottling out of his gang - what happens? Is he recaptured, or does he count as freed and rejoins his gang?

I wouldn't even borther You with this question, but one of our group (the captor) is stubborn about it. For me it is obvious that the victim IF was freed rejoins it's gang. If he fights and moves as normal why shouldn't he flee like the rest? And if my adversary is right then there is possibility to actually capture the captured. For example you free the captive, then he goes DOWN, then his team bottles out, then he rolls 4+ and dies, and then the so called 'captured' guy is captured again on a serious injury roll... i think that this ain't gonna happen. So im certain that once free, the captive bottles out with the rest of the gang - even more - he propably show's some obscenic gestures before departure:)

« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 12:19:50 AM by Nazroth »

Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2010, 03:29:05 AM »
Which Gangs start their game as outlawed? Is redemption outlawed from the start?

This one I can answer.  Not sure on the others.

The following Gangs are always outlaws:

The Redemption
Scavvies
Pit Slaves
Ratskin Renegades
(This isn't including all the other various gang rules dotted about that aren't as official)

All the 'Outlander Gangs" (the ones above and the Pit Slaves) are technically outlaws in their own way.  They certainly aren't house gangs.  The rules aren't written brilliantly, but the indication is still there.  In the newer rules the key is to see the bit about 'Bounty'.  That makes them outlaws.  They all have other rules and means that override the usual outlaw rules but they are, still, essentially outlaws if they have a bounty.

The difference between your standard outlaws and outlanders is that they always are outlaws.  They can't 'buy back' their 'good citizen' status from the guilders.  The guilders will hunt them mercilessly and laugh disgustingly at any feeble attempt to bribe them.

Those gangs will (unless specified otherwise) use the Outlaw Trade Chart, and follow the other rules where appropriate.  They will also have only one territory, which operates as a base, use the upkeep costs and starvation and so on.

I'm not sure where Spyrers are on this scale, I've never really known, or checked.  They are an Outlander gang, but as usual, they have their own exceptions.

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 03:38:16 PM »
THX.

So three questions remain unanswered:

INFILTRATION: In which scenarios is it legal to infiltrate for attacker? Similarly in ehich scenario defender can infiltrate?

CAPTURED/RESCUE MISSION: If captured fighter was freed in rescue scenario, but didn't make it to attackers edge before the bottling out of his gang - what happens? Is he recaptured, or does he count as freed and rejoins his gang?

CHARGING MODELS OUT OF LOS: In Answer Mod FAQ - 2-26-09 there are two questions about charging enemy, that is not in our LoS. There are two different answers. One that you can do that, and another that it is impossible. which one is true?
Can you charge an enemy, that you cannot see?

Please answer if U're able.

Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2010, 06:39:59 AM »
So three questions remain unanswered:

...

CAPTURED/RESCUE MISSION: If captured fighter was freed in rescue scenario, but didn't make it to attackers edge before the bottling out of his gang - what happens? Is he recaptured, or does he count as freed and rejoins his gang?

I can chop it down to two.  From the FAQ:

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Q: In a rescue mission, is the captive’s equipment returned?
A: According to the Rescue Mission rules in the ORB (page 118) and the Captured! Serious Injury Result in the ORB (page 84) a successfully rescued captive will also retain his equipment. In addition, if a captured fighter is released during the Rescue Scenario then he is free to go and has his equipment, but is not allowed to use it. This is an oversight in the wording of the Rescue Scenario, but it is also just a mechanic of the game and may not seem logical.

Q: If my captured fighter is released during a Rescue Scenario and then goes out-of-action, what happens to him?
A: Per the Rescue Scenario rules in the ORB (page 118) if you free the captive and he is taken out-of-action he is no longer the captive. He will be treated as a normal fighter that had gone out-of-action.

These two questions kind of indirectly answer what I suspected.  The emphasis is on him being cut free, and from that point he takes his chances.  So yes, if he was cut free, he doesn't have to leave the board to avoid capture.  Getting him off the board just ends the game immediately, potentially reducing damage to the attacking party.  If he goes down, after all, he could end up dead or captured again.  So long as he is cut loose before your gang bottled, he is essentially freed.

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2010, 09:07:21 AM »
RATSKIN MAP: Can you use ratskin map even if you're not the one rolling on the scenario tabble? If 'yes' what happens when both players want to use ratskin maps? Who goes first?

Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2010, 09:42:40 AM »
The three open ones are toughies and I can't find exact examples in the rules or FAQ, so in accordance with our answer mod procedure, the answer mods will discuss these and get back to you.

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2010, 08:55:37 PM »
So how is it going? Some interesting points of view?

Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2010, 10:16:58 PM »
I think M.T. provided the fullest answer of our off-the-scenes discussion, hope he doesn't mind me quoting him:

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Q: Can you charge a model that is hidden or out of line of sight? [2005]
A: You can only charge a fighter that you can see or have detected (aka inside your initiative range). This can get tricky, but remember that you declare and move charging models at the very start of the movement phase. In addition, per the charging rules on ORB page 11 you have to declare to your opponent who is charging and who the target of the charge is. If your fighter cannot see the intended target then he would not know to charge it. Keep in mind that as players we know there is a fighter there we want to charge but the reality of the fighter is that he has no LOS to the threat.

This ruling is from 2005 and it says that you must see your opponent.

Quote
Q: I know that the 2005 NRC findings addressed this issue, but can I charge a fighter that is hidden or out of my LOS?
A: After further review, here is the revised findings…
Hidden Fighter – You may not charge a fighter that is hidden. By definition a hidden fighter is not a valid charge target. If he is inside your initiative range then he is not hidden and you can charge him. However, if you have a declared charge against another fighter and your movement makes a hidden fighter ‘detected’ or rather, makes him loose his hidden status then he is still not a valid charge target for that charger, but he may be the target of the next charger since his is no longer hidden. Remember that charge movement is declared and happens on a one at a time basis before compulsory and regular movement per the rule on pages 10 and 11 of the ORB.

Not hidden, but no LOS – As for fighters that are not hidden, but are not in your LOS then you can charge them. Necromunda is a changing battlefield where your knowledge as a player and that of the fighters themselves in not logically associated. The target needs to use the game mechanic of ‘Hiding’ instead of just getting out of LOS to avoid charging.

This ruling was made after the first one, and it clearly says that you can charge an opponent that you can't see, provided he's not hidden.

Since this was a "further review", it replaces the first one. From now on, an opponent that's not hidden, but not in LOS, can be charged.

As for ratskin map, I'd say that the player with the lowest rating rolls on the table, then the player with the map modifies the result. If both players have a map, they both can use it, but they must roll a dice - who scores higher, modifies the result first.

I'm in accord with all M.T. says, so I don't need to add anything I don't think.  The LOS and charging is an issue, but you can imagine charging into an area, fully expecting to fight something, but not knowing for sure.  Combat wouldn't not ensue just because you didn't see them before you went barging in.  If they were hiding, that would be different.  Although looking for stuff that "makes sense" in GW games, but it's good to help out.

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2010, 09:30:43 AM »
Thank you, so the infiltration remains.

Offline Nazroth

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2010, 05:37:29 PM »
Oh and we have another set of questions. This time PIT SLAVES CLAW WEAPOND and HURL OPPONENT rules:

1) Can a pit slave armed with a CLAW special hth weapon hurl opponent, that goes out of action (6) as a result of this round of combat?

2) Does Pit Slave armed with a CLAW special hth weapon automatically kill opponent that goes down and is thrown with Hurl special rule?

3) If answer for above is YES, what happens in multiple combat? For example: pit slave fights two gangers. He wins round of combat against one of them, inflict 'go down' and throw him away. Then he fights another ganger and kills him. Is the 'hurled' victim dead? In normal combat both would be dead, becouse at the end of combat they would be at mercy of their opponent, but hurl separates gangers before that...

It would be nice if you write us down a PROCEDURE for combat and multiple combat with use of a CLAW special weapon and with use of HURL OPPONENT special rule. Actually the 'additional' hits mentioned in CLAW special rules are little tricky.




Offline Dimreapa

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Re: Couple interesting questions
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2010, 01:12:57 AM »
Okay, I'll have a crack at these.

1) Can a pit slave armed with a CLAW special hth weapon hurl opponent, that goes out of action (6) as a result of this round of combat?

As the rules in the rulebook state under injuries on page 17 of the ORB, models that are taken out of action are removed from play immediately.  The wording of the Claw Weapon is not ideal, but an additional throw after taking a model out of action would rarely have any additional impact.  If you have areas that would inflict instant death, it may be arguable, but otherwise there would be no point throwing the model.

So what about if the model is just taken down, but would, because of combat rules, be taken immediately out of action?

It does create the conflicting issue of events.  Does the status of "Down" move to "Out of Action" before the model would be thrown?  It does say that the attack is 'in addition' to hitting the opponent, so by that logic it could be arguable that the model would be thrown.  However this would mean that the model would be ejected out of combat, which would mean a separate injury roll that wouldn't be affected by regular combat (it would be from falling damage) and would not automatically take the gang member out of action.  So if it does happen regardless of the result, then the model would be taken down, thrown and then would potentially suffer another damage roll, but would not go out of action automatically except if the model falls a distance of 12" or greater.

2) Does Pit Slave armed with a CLAW special hth weapon automatically kill opponent that goes down and is thrown with Hurl special rule?

An opponent taken down in combat would usually automatically go out of action (see 1); the only exception is multiple combat (see 3).  The only Pit Slave weapon capable of killing an opponent outright in a close combat is the Shears.

The Claw is of most use when an opponent isn't injured but is defeated in combat.  In this case the model could be thrown, and then chucked off a ledge and so on.  But the rules do not account for instant death even when falling great distances.

3) If answer for above is YES, what happens in multiple combat? For example: pit slave fights two gangers. He wins round of combat against one of them, inflict 'go down' and throw him away. Then he fights another ganger and kills him. Is the 'hurled' victim dead? In normal combat both would be dead, becouse at the end of combat they would be at mercy of their opponent, but hurl separates gangers before that...

It would be nice if you write us down a PROCEDURE for combat and multiple combat with use of a CLAW special weapon and with use of HURL OPPONENT special rule. Actually the 'additional' hits mentioned in CLAW special rules are little tricky.

As I see it, a multiple combat would make no difference to the way the Claw is used.  The rules in the ORB state that parts of a multiple combat are fought as if in one-on-one fighting.  Essentially if you fought two gangers in combat with a pit slave with a claw, you would fight the first opponent, if you won, you could hurl the opponent.  As multiple combats prevent models being taken down and out if there is at least one model from their side still standing, this is a lot easier to justify than a single combat where a model is taken down and out.

Note however, that regardless of the opponent being ejected, the fresh enemy would still get their additional attack dice and +1 bonus to combat resolution.  That gang member would then however be taken down and out of action if you somehow managed to win the combat and wound them successfully.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 04:17:08 AM by Dimreapa »