charge and pursuit

[jchaos79]

Hello,

I have some doubts and I will try to explain to you with an example.

two brigades. The attacker brigades is composed by chaos warriors supported by chaos marauders
The defender is composed by night goblins supported by bofa goblins.

Then chaos charge and make a battleline covering all the front. Roll the dice and chaos win making 6 hits and forcing the goblins to retreat 4 cm. Chaos player decide to pursuit.

1) How is the new battle line? all chaos warriors fighting with night goblins central base (a) or chaos warriors advance to enter in combat with bofa goblins too(b) ?

If b is correct. Did it means that central night goblin is flanked and also it is flanking chaos warriors?

(I don't know how to insert images so I'll try to make a scheme)

first round:                       M  M  M               M marauder
                                      W W W                W Chaos warrior
                                      N  N  N                 N night goblin
                                      G  G  G                 G bofa goblin

take casualities and retreat:
                                     M M  M
                                    W W W

                                        N
                                    G  G  G

Possibility a)
                                    M M M

                                    W W W
                                        N
                                    G  G  G

Possibility b)
 
                                    M M M

                                       W
                                     WNW
                                     G GG                           
                                   
2) When the first round of combat chaos marauder are supporting. Can they pursuit because they are part of the combat?

Thanks in advance, I hope I have explain myself

[Lex]

Hello,

I have some doubts and I will try to explain to you with an example.

two brigades. The attacker brigades is composed by chaos warriors supported by chaos marauders
The defender is composed by night goblins supported by bofa goblins.

Important distinction:  you have a brigade of Chaos Warriors in front of Chaos Marauders. These are ordered (with one "brigade" order) to charge into a unit of goblins, supported by another unit of goblins.

Then chaos charge and make a battleline covering all the front.

Assuming that positioning dont "mix it up", your "central stand" of Chaos Warriors centre on the goblins and the others are positioned next to it on both sides. And dont forget ! the poor Gobs get a Stand&Shoot DURING that movement.

After moving the Warriors in position the Marauders (who where behind the warriors) are moved into supporting contact with the warriors again

Roll the dice and chaos win making 6 hits and forcing the goblins to retreat 4 cm. Chaos player decide to pursuit.

OK, I will take the above at face value, but for the sake of argument I will spell this out.

• Goblins rolled 3 S&S that did not hit OR hit, but hits where saved
• Chaos make 6 hits (removing two stands of poor gobs),
• all 3 stands of gobs fight back, again ineffectivly

COMBAT RESOLUTION: Chaos (6 + 3 support) = 9  vs Gobs (0 + 1 support  <-- the lost stands cant claim support) = 8. So the goblins need to move back 8 cm

After the goblins have moved, forcing the 2d unit of goblins to "make way" (and dont forget to roll for BOTH units to check for confusion !!) the Chaos Warriors can elect to pursue, which they do.

NOTE: in this case the defending player has various options.
Remember that you remove ANY stands from the unit in the sequence you want, so you can "guide" the attacker where he does least harm (or when you can get at him).

Also remember that you have the option to "refuse to make way", sacrificing the last stand of gobs, and forcing the Chaos player to "use up" his Advance move.

And remember that the "supporting" unit of gobs must move out of the way in the "shortest" possible distance, which in the above case dont nescecarily mean they need to go back !  the COULD slide to the side.

1) How is the new battle line? all chaos warriors fighting with night goblins central base (a) or chaos warriors advance to enter in combat with bofa goblins too(b) ?

If b is correct. Did it means that central night goblin is flanked and also it is flanking chaos warriors?

(I don't know how to insert images so I'll try to make a scheme)

Assuming the Goblin player removes the two stands on the flanks and keep the middle one, and makes way with the second unit.

• move the stand(s) that had full frontal contact back in full frontal contact
• move stand that can not make full frontal contact so that they make partial frontal contact with the enemy unit they fought before. And make that move with the shortest possible route
• IF you choose to bring your unit into contact with a "fresh" enemy, remember that you will NOT get Pursuit NOR Charge bonus against them!

BTW. you can make pictures with any halfway decent drawing program and use [insert image] to make them show here, or alternativly use the [insert code] tags, because code will line up easier !

first round:                       M  M  M               M marauder
                                      W W W                W Chaos warrior
                                      N  N  N                 N night goblin
                                      G  G  G                 G bofa goblin

take casualities and retreat:
                                     M M  M
                                    W W W

                                        N
                                    G  G  G

Possibility a)
                                    M M M

                                    W W W
                                        N
                                    G  G  G

Possibility b)
 
                                    M M M

                                       W
                                     WNW
                                     G GG                           
                                   
2) When the first round of combat chaos marauder are supporting. Can they pursuit because they are part of the combat?

You are correct to assume that the Marauders can NOT move along on the pursuit!.
The option you would end up with is option 1. Note however that the two stand that you can NOT move DIRECT forward, CAN be moved into frontal contact, but YOU (as attacker/pursuer) can OPT to involve a new unit in the combat, but are not forced into doing that !

Thanks in advance, I hope I have explain myself

[jchaos79]

Hello!

Thanks for your explanations full of details. They have been really helpful. =)

To sum up the answers:

- The Chaos Warriors decide if they pursue or not.
- If they pursue, you can choose to place them one of these ways:

                                    V  V  V
                                        N
                                    G  G  G


                                        V
                                     > N <         In this case the two Chaos Warrios are flanked by Bofa goblins
                                     G G G

Regarding the the rules you mention (brigade order, stand & shoot, calculation of combat resolution, etc), you are right. I didn't write all the detail 

Anyway your comments are very interesting. We are not playing our games with some things as you say, maybe we are not using the rules properly:

COMBAT RESOLUTION: Chaos (6 + 3 support) = 9  vs Gobs (0 + 1 support  <-- the lost stands cant claim support) = 8. So the goblins need to move back 8 cm

In my opinion, they should benefit from support as they all were in the combat. As they can attack they should have the benefit of being supported. Is that wrong?

Remember that you remove ANY stands from the unit in the sequence you want, so you can "guide" the attacker where he does least harm (or when you can get at him).

From Warmaster rules page 38: "stands are always removed from the edge of the unit's formation, never from the middle but otherway the player can choose which stands to remove" Has the rule changed?

After the goblins have moved, forcing the 2d unit of goblins to "make way" (and dont forget to roll for BOTH units to check for confusion !!) ).

The one engaged in combat also checks for confusion?

cheers!

[Lex]

Anyway your comments are very interesting. We are not playing our games with some things as you say, maybe we are not using the rules properly:

COMBAT RESOLUTION: Chaos (6 + 3 support) = 9  vs Gobs (0 + 1 support  <-- the lost stands cant claim support) = 8. So the goblins need to move back 8 cm

In my opinion, they should benefit from support as they all were in the combat. As they can attack they should have the benefit of being supported. Is that wrong?

This is one of the areas of debate for a potential rules change, but as things stand at the moment ONLY stands that remain on table can claim support.

Remember that you remove ANY stands from the unit in the sequence you want, so you can "guide" the attacker where he does least harm (or when you can get at him).

From Warmaster rules page 38: "stands are always removed from the edge of the unit's formation, never from the middle but otherway the player can choose which stands to remove" Has the rule changed?

Nope, rule did not change. But read it this way:  you can NOT take away a stand which should lead to breaking the unit's formation. So you could not start taking away the middle stand. However, all actions are done PER STAND. In other words, when you remove the first stand from either side of the unit, you are left with a 2-stand unit, which allows you to take away either stand.

Be assured that it will make very much sense where to take away stands in a lot of situations, and forcing enemies into places it dont want to follow up, or gettin vulnarable units out of LOS for an Advance move.

And dont forget that "killing a unit by refusing to make way" is done AFTER determining CR !!  so your opponent dont get any "bonus" from it.

After the goblins have moved, forcing the 2d unit of goblins to "make way" (and dont forget to roll for BOTH units to check for confusion !!) ).

The one engaged in combat also checks for confusion?

Most definitly so !! 

Test for unit FORCING a make way,
test for unit FOCED to make way ....

which means that

Code: [Select]


XXX    |
YYY    |
ZZZ    V


in a situation where X is being pushed back and Y and Z opt to make way, you test

Code: [Select]


XXX    |    1 time for pushing Y
YYY    |    1 time for being pushed by X, and then once more for pushing Y
ZZZ    V    1 time for being pushed by Y



[jchaos79]

Thanks again Lex

all clear now

[Getlord]

Let me comment the part which Lex skipped in the last summary.

For the pursuers there are two options only:

Both begins with: "Three stands of Warriors are coming into contact around poor Night gobbos. One stand center-to-center, two remianing front-to-side."

And then:

option 1: They are moved far enough into side to front contact with supporting gobbos.
option 2: They are NOT moved far enough into side to front contact with supporting gobbos.

The pursuing player decides.

As there is NO OBLIGATION to maximize your frontage while pursuing you can align fully with retreater side (2cm) OR less (i.e. 0,5cm). Unfortunately rules untill now allow also 1mm alignment as well. In our gaming group we try to keep 1cm as minimum, but still in this case you have obvious right to CHOOSE whether you're coming into contact with supporters or not.

But there is no possibility to finish pursuing move in the discussed case corner-to-corner. Totally forbidden in this case 

[jchaos79]

Hello,

Thanks Getlord, very useful too!

we were playing maximizing the frontage also in pursuit. We are going to use all of this in the next game 

Poor gobbos.... 

[Lex]

N'ah .... think again, poor Chaos Warriors ..... 

Properly placed goblin speedbumps and sacraficing remaining (single) stands can potentialy strand them in a VERY wrong place......

[Getlord]

Ya :-)

This is far better to scarifice this (N)ight Goblin stand. "Force" Warriors to advance to another cannon fodder unit and then... :-)

Thanks for the discussion.

[Guthwine]

But for the chaos warriors it is better to get into contact with the second unit (aka maximize frontage on the gobbos flank) because he would get them without using his advance move, wouldnt he?

[Lex]

But for the chaos warriors it is better to get into contact with the second unit (aka maximize frontage on the gobbos flank) because he would get them without using his advance move, wouldnt he?

He could, but he would count as being flanked, and IF he allocates attacks on the second gobo unit then he cant claim pursuit bonusses

[Guthwine]

So he would loose his pursuit bonus by being flanked but its not even necessary to allocate attacks against the second unit because he will get the pursuit bonus in the next combat round after the last stand of the first unit has been removed. This of course only will only work well with the chaoswarrior-goblins combination with equal infantry units it would be risky.

Would it be possible to move one of the flanking chaos stands into contact with the second gobbo unit and place the second flanking stand only into contact with the remaining goblin stand? So he would have contact with both units but only one counting as flanked!?

[Lex]

So he would loose his pursuit bonus by being flanked but its not even necessary to allocate attacks against the second unit because he will get the pursuit bonus in the next combat round after the last stand of the first unit has been removed. This of course only will only work well with the chaoswarrior-goblins combination with equal infantry units it would be risky.

He still gets pursuitbonus IF allocating attacks on the original unit's stand(s), just not when allocating attacks on a freshly accidental contact.

And yeah, in these circumstances it definitly is worth considering to scacrifice the "lost" stand and force advance, rather then allowing him to roll more units through "accidental" contact

Would it be possible to move one of the flanking chaos stands into contact with the second gobbo unit and place the second flanking stand only into contact with the remaining goblin stand? So he would have contact with both units but only one counting as flanked!?

trying to make the mental picture 
But yeah, AFAICT there is no rule against that

[Guthwine]

Ok, thanks for the info, I am pretty sure we always have played it, with maximizing the frontage in pursuit in Austria. Until now of course.

[Getlord]

But for the chaos warriors it is better to get into contact with the second unit (aka maximize frontage on the gobbos flank) because he would get them without using his advance move, wouldnt he?

Of course, but clever Goblin player may refuse to make way, loose the remaining stand and force Warriors to advance instead of pursuing.

______________
Coming into option that one stand only is flanked. This is very risky:

Warriors player may wound goblins maximum 6 times. While three wounds are almost certain (to a lone stand), three remainng to fresh unit are rather disputable: only 3 atacks from flank to front. So lets consider only 1 is scored.

It means 4 wounds to goblins. And Gobbos will strike back with 1+4 attacks i.e ~1 wound and 1 supporting stands. Close to a draw.

Rmember that you cannot inflict more wounds than the remaining stand(s) actually have (or has). So the attacking power of two Warrior stands is very much lost in this case.

Lex - what about stand-and-shoot here? No s-t-s while charged accidentally? I don't remeber at the moment...