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Author Topic: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points  (Read 20086 times)

Offline Lex

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2011, 09:06:24 AM »
The one thing that comes to mind is how you guys defined the swamp.... with stand (partly) in the swam and the swamped markesd a defended terrain those combats WILL have a diffferent outcome.

I you guys dont mind doing a bit more, then assume the swamp GIVES defended and redo that last round, that should also show everyone the effect of the proper amount of terrain on the table.

I am realy looking forward to trying myhand at this, using Battlespeak seems like punching my program cards compared to the speed of this game !!

KUDOS !

Offline Doob

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2011, 12:23:17 PM »
@Sazzel - Your question about support is an interesting one that I haven't really thought about before.  I think there were a few factors particular to our game and the infantry units we used:

the units that fought  in our game were relatively squishy with at best saves of 6, and in several cases no armour at all
Orcs throw out a lot of attacks (and die very easily)
I don't think the Orcs really had any below-average rolling to hit in any of the infantry combats

So infantry tended to die before support could come into play.  However, with below average dice rolling, or units with better armour saves (like Elf spearmen or Black orcs), support could become more of a factor.

@Lex - I'm happy to re-run the central fight assuming defensible terrain.  I suspect the Orcs won't do nearly as well.  I'll download an earlier version of the file and re-do it.

Offline Lex

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2011, 12:41:49 PM »
@Lex - I'm happy to re-run the central fight assuming defensible terrain.  I suspect the Orcs won't do nearly as well.  I'll download an earlier version of the file and re-do it.

Much obliged.... I had actualy assumed you DID define it that way during set°up but when I checked back I noticed you had not played it that way.

Playing marshlands, it is save to assume:
- command mods for being in it
- defensive mods for being in it

and you need to establish if they have a LOS effect.
- no LOS blockage  or
- looking / out like woods

if you feel REAL nasty, make them hazardous as well......

Offline Doob

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2011, 07:14:51 PM »
Okay, resetting the game to here, and assuming swamp is defensible terrain:


Orcs6 will attack Halberdiers5, and Orcs5 will attack Halberdiers4.

Halberdiers5 have right stand partly in swamp, and left stand wholly outside.  So 2 stands of Orcs6 can attack normally with 10 attacks at 4+, and 1 stand of Orcs6 can get 4 attacks at 5+

Both stands of Orcs5 are attacking into terrain so they'll get 8 attacks at 5+

Orcs6 attacks, 4+ ones first:
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "10d6" :

1 + 2 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 3 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 6 = 34
5 hits saved on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "5d6" :

2 + 4 + 4 + 5 + 2 = 17
No saves so 5 wounds so far

Remaining 4 attacks at 5+
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "4d6" :

5 + 5 + 1 + 6 = 17
Lucky - 3 hits
save on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "3d6" :

3 + 1 + 3 = 7
No saves, so a total of 8 wounds, wiping the unit out.

Assuming Halberdiers5 split their return attacks as before with 1 stand against each Orc unit:
3 attacks vs Orcs6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "3d6" :

6 + 2 + 4 = 12
2 hits saved on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "2d6" :

5 + 1 = 6
2 wounds

And 2 attacks on Orcs5 (attacks reduced by 1 because of flanking)
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "2d6" :

1 + 5 = 6
1 hit save on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "1d6" :

6
Saved

So far we have Halberdiers5 wiped out by 8 unsaved hits, 2 hits on Orcs6, and none on Orcs5

On to Orcs5 and Halberdiers4

Orcs5 get 1 stand with 4 attacks as they have no charge bonus, and hit on 5+
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "4d6" :

5 + 5 + 1 + 6 = 17
Lucky dice rolling again by the Orcs - 3 hits saved on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "3d6" :

4 + 3 + 2 = 9
3 wounds

2 attacks back due to flanking
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "2d6" :

3 + 4 = 7
1 hit save on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "1d6" :

1
1 wound.

So:
Halberdiers5 wiped out by 8 hits
Orcs6 have 2 hits
Orcs5 have 1 hit
Halberdiers4 lose a stand due to 3 hits

No supporting stands, so Orcs win combat by 8 and Halberdiers4 have to retreat sideways 4cm



So taking Lex's advice, Orcs6 are free to advance, and should do so before pursuits.  Their target has to be the Halberdiers4, and they just advance straight forward.


Orcs5 can now pursue.  Only their right stand can move straight forward into contact, so that happens first.  Then the other stand moves around into contact at the rear of the Halberdiers.


I hope I've got it right.  In the next round of combat, everyone will count as being in the open.

Orcs6 get 5 attacks per stand (4 +1 for advance), so 15 attacks at 4+
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "15d6" :

4 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 4 + 5 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 6 = 48
7 hits saved on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "7d6" :

6 + 2 + 2 + 5 + 2 + 5 + 4 = 26
1 save, so the unit will be wiped out, and no need to roll for Orcs5 attacks.

As Orcs6 cannot advance again, but Orcs5 could still advance into the forthcoming combat, let's say the Halberdiers direct all 4 of their return attacks against Orcs5
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "4d6" :

1 + 2 + 1 + 5 = 9
1 hit saved on 6
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "1d6" :

2
1 wound, but not quite enough to remove a stand.

Orcs6 can fall back
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "3d6" :

6 + 4 + 1 = 11
and get of the way

Orcs5 can advance up to 10cm, and their nearest target is Halberds6.  Only 1 stand can move far enough to make contact, and the other forms up behind it.


Orcs8 attack crossbows.  Only the end-most crossbow stand is in swamp, so no attack penalties for Orcs - 17 attacks inc Hero
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "17d6" :

2 + 2 + 2 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 6 + 6 + 5 + 1 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 2 = 55
8 hits - no saves
Orcs5 choose to attack crossbows too. Crossbows ccount as defended so 4 attacks at 5+ to hit
Quote
Result of the throw of dice "4d6" :

6 + 2 + 1 + 3 = 12
1 hit - no save, so the crossbows are wiped out

At this point I'm not sure, should the Crossbows split their attacks or concentrate on the unit in front of them?

And have i done it right so far?






Offline Lex

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2011, 07:22:27 PM »
From a first glance indeed..... !   and although it makes some difference with your rolling it seems the overall effect will be the same

Offline Doob

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2011, 09:29:17 PM »
Yes, the end result is likely to be similar.  I think having some Empire stands hanging outside the marsh allows too many Orcs to get normal attacks and bonuses.  If all the Empire stands stood at least partly in the marsh, things might well be different.

Offline Geep

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2011, 06:37:48 AM »
Out of curiosity-
Why, when the knights were chewing through the orc units earlier in the game, did the Orcs split their attacks, rather than concentrating on one unit of knights in an attempt to wipe them out completely? (I'm referring to posts 45 and 46 of this thread)
I know that some attack splitting was needed (as not all orc stands touched both knight units), but Doob split his attacks differently in successive combats, which to me seems like a bad idea.
Was there a strategy behind it, and can more experienced generals give opinions on whether this kind of thing is a good idea in Warmaster?

Offline Sazzel

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2011, 01:31:56 PM »
I was wondering. It seems like except in the case of something with a firm boundary, like a wall or building, that when an enemy is in a defended position, often the aggressor will move into a defended position partially or wholly in order to come into base-to-base contact with them. At what point do you say that a unit is defended? Must they start the phase in that position to get a benefit?

Offline Lex

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2011, 02:12:30 PM »
The whole Terrain thing is an issue which can make or break the game mechanism. As things stand right now, a decent amount of terrain, using a good mix of LOS blockers, lineair pieces and non-open terrain will make for an interesting game.

Local rule here is that the footprint of the terrain is actualy slighlty bigger then the actual pieces on tha table. This is done to avoid exploitation of placement and makes it a LOT easier to define and play situations like in the game above.

In general all based scenery terain is assumed to have a "phased" boundary that extends beyond the actualy base, in such a way that when ANY portion of the stand is in contact with the scenery base, that stand is deemed to gleen all bonus/malus of the terrain.

Similarly, if any part off a stand is behind a linear obstacle then the stand is assumed to get the bonus of the terrain.

1) no more discusion if a stand is in terrain
2) more "terain"  on the table, without the actual need to represent it.

Offline Sazzel

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Re: Sazzel Empire v. Doob Orcs 1000 Points
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2011, 12:36:27 AM »
Anyone up for another 1000 Point game? Think I learned a lot from this one.